The Wanderer's Minuet and class-design frustrations

[Connor]

Hello!

Unfortunately for the FFXIV forums, I'm back with a new thread! Please skip to the last sentence if you want the TL;DR

Today I'd like to continue beating the dead horse that is the Wanderer's Minuet. However, contrary to many threads about it I want to discuss whether there are people out there who actually like Minuet and caster-Bard as much as I do (or at least, the idea behind it, as there's definitely been many problems with the way they implemented it. I desperately want things like the Wanderer's Minuet to stay, but given what I see on the forums that seems pretty much impossible at this point.


Let me preface by saying I started playing Bard in 1.0. I've never really like using a Bow and Arrow / Archery in video games, and I've always hated physical dps. But, being able to cast support spells (Protect / Stoneskin / Raise / Sacred Prism) on top of having to keep up songs really helped me to enjoy the class.

For those who never played/say 1.0, songs worked as real support buffs with a duration and base MP cost, as well as requiring some positioning if possible which allowed you to put different songs on different party members. As opposed to the current system behinds songs of....press a button.

Because of the damage penalties, battle design and dps gain granted by Foe Requiem though, 99% of the time you're going to be using Requiem once - pre-pull of course, because the idea of a Bard singing during battle is completely preposterous - and...that's it. More often than not the fight is over before you can sing it again anyway.

2.0 hits, Bard no longer has any access to support spells. Furthermore, songs are now 'auras' rather than the support buffs they were before. So no more MP management, no more positioning, no more applying different songs to different party members. The class became exceptionally boring as a result. I really, really disliked the changed but continued with Bard by repeating everyone's favourite mantra maybe next patch it'll be better.

Heavensward comes down from on high, and it looks like Bards will be able to use magic again from the trailer. Queue extreme hype, and whilst I was disappointed that Minuet just turned out to be a literal copy-paste of Gauss Barrell, I was ready to take what I could get.

I really enjoy being a caster-Bard, even if it was implemented very poorly. Unfortunately, more disappointment was on the horizon, as the much-hated Warden's Paean was changed from being an actual song to another bland, generic cooldown. Song cast times were cut in half, to the point where you very rarely actually manage to see the Bard using songs because the animation is over so quickly (and that's not counting animation clipping, a pretty awful problem on Bard and other jobs that I don't see discussed at all really)

Now, with Stormblood on the horizon, I very often see Minuet mentioned only when followed by the words 'should be removed'.

It's frustrating to have an image of a job so disparate from what others see/want. Where I fervently hoped to return to the singing, casting, magical Bard that appeared in 1.0 (and all previous FF iterations), many seem to care only for the Archer aspect of the job. I know I sound like a broken record, but it honestly feels like I'm being punished for wanting Bards to be, well, Bards, as they originally were. It's the only job in-game that has been changed so much and so often.

In the transition from 1.0 to 2.0 Black Mages haven't stopped using Fire/Ice/Thunder, nor has White Mage stopped using Stone/Aero, nor have Dragoons stopped using Jump, etc, etc. Bards, however, went a complete 180 from support/utility to just dps.

What terrifies me is that come 4.0, the Wanderer's Minuet, nor cast times on songs, nor any spell-casting at all will remain. We'll have a generic DoT based Archer with very limited utility and a whole lot of DPS that the devs never intended for it to have.

It's painful to have your favourite job in your favourite game be dismantled and made into something new again and again and again. I play other jobs, of course, but none have ever clicked with me in a way that makes me feel like I could play them regularly.

The point of this thread is first and foremost to discuss whether or not people calling for the removal of Minuet are representative of a majority of Bards.
[U] Am I really the only person who wants Bards to be how they used to be as singing, spell-casting Archers?
I won't lie and say that I'm not just venting my frustrations, but nevertheless, at least something worthwhile could come out of it.

[Powe]

........... na, we need WM to stop bards from running around hitting EVERY aoe that pops up. Ever since WM I have way less bards dying from aoes. Also just read the last part, you're not alone. Tons of bards on Gilgamesh complain about WM a lot but I have a alt at lv 60 bard and I have no problems with it. If anything I like it more with WM

[ChloeGrace]

We'll have a generic DoT based Archer with very limited utility.

^ You forgot to add the gimped damage as a trade off for all that "utility".

Welcome to the 3.0 launch! IIRC there was a bard rage megathread of several hundred pages calling for an end to WM, and that was only the english forum. The JP forum exploded.

It still didn't happen. WM is still here. Yoshi plays BLM. He hates bard. He has publicly stated that it was a mistake to include the job in the game.
WM has been forced upon us, and Yoshi & the devs stubbornly cling to their brutal mistakes as a way of saving face.


Yeah, it drastically changes the play style. Yes, it's a shock to the system. It feels clunky and disjointed. The execution is bodged together like it was forced (e.g. who decided tying Barrage to non-critical hits, for a job that is entirely based upon crit is pure stupidity). It makes bard a ghetto bow-mage, and inferior to every other DPS.

Yoshi doesn't care, despite the ~12% of players who main bard.

TL;DR WM isn't going anywhere. Suck it up, sunshine.

[Connor]

It still didn't happen. WM is still here. He has publicly stated that it was a mistake to include the job in the game.


Yoshi doesn't care, despite the ~12% of players who main bard.

TL;DR WM isn't going anywhere. Suck it up, sunshine.

I definitely agree that it feels like they just don't really care about Bard. I've never heard of that quote from Yoshi, it would suck if he really did say that.

[CookieMonsta]

I definitely agree that it feels like they just don't really care about Bard. I've never heard of that quote from Yoshi, it would suck if he really did say that.

Actually since they buffed WM, it's now one of those skills that widen the ceiling and floor of the BRD class. It allows exceptional players to shine, the class truly has a skill ceiling since ever. I found the ARR BRD to be tired, uninspired and overall fairly boring after a while.

[HolyTurtle]

It makes bard a ghetto bow-mage, and inferior to every other DPS.

The hyperbole is extraordinary given how well Bard has been performing on the DPS chart of FFlogs.

[Reinha]

The hyperbole is extraordinary given how well Bard has been performing on the DPS chart of FFlogs.

Which dps job is usually doing worse than bard?

[The_Last_Dragoon]

Considering my own role in the whole shock over the loss of 2.X lulbardz play style when Heavensward hit, I have to say that WM has indeed made the class into something that actually takes skill to play and optimize your damage output. Not to mention that now when you have a party full of Bards you don't have players blaming a lack of damage simply on your job choice.

[Duelle]

2.0 hits, Bard no longer has any access to support spells. Furthermore, songs are now 'auras' rather than the support buffs they were before. So no more MP management, no more positioning, no more applying different songs to different party members.

I'll chime in here that the design was taken in a direction close to how games like Dragon Age interpreted Bards; that being, buffs acting as auras that consume resources while still dealing damage. Our BRD simply became more like Leliana, just without the option of swapping the bow for dual daggers.

I really enjoy being a caster-Bard, even if it was implemented very poorly. Unfortunately, more disappointment was on the horizon, as the much-hated Warden's Paean was changed from being an actual song to another bland, generic cooldown. Song cast times were cut in half, to the point where you very rarely actually manage to see the Bard using songs because the animation is over so quickly (and that's not counting animation clipping, a pretty awful problem on Bard and other jobs that I don't see discussed at all really)

So you'd rather a skill be near useless? Because Warden's Paean was pretty much that when the expansion launched. On top of having gameplay changed at a terrible point in the job's growth, one of BRD's 5 new abilities wasn't useful.

It's frustrating to have an image of a job so disparate from what others see/want. Where I fervently hoped to return to the singing, casting, magical Bard that appeared in 1.0 (and all previous FF iterations), many seem to care only for the Archer aspect of the job. I know I sound like a broken record, but it honestly feels like I'm being punished for wanting Bards to be, well, Bards, as they originally were. It's the only job in-game that has been changed so much and so often.

If you're limiting yourself to the idea of a BRD solely using songs (i.e, the guy that equips an instrument as their main arm and is a sitting duck in actual combat), that's a limited perspective and one you're not going to see much. Especially given how Bards have been adapted in the recent years on top of things like the protagonist of The Bard's Tale, who was no pushover himself.

What terrifies me is that come 4.0, the Wanderer's Minuet, nor cast times on songs, nor any spell-casting at all will remain. We'll have a generic DoT based Archer with very limited utility and a whole lot of DPS that the devs never intended for it to have.

BRD losing WM would be a good thing, provided you alter the design of the whole Archer base class. The job would benefit from a complete overhaul into something with a clear focus. "Song Magic" would actually be a decent direction to take them in, and I think the job would be well served by mixing song and bow into each other while giving the job some utility where it makes sense.

The point of this thread is first and foremost to discuss whether or not people calling for the removal of Minuet are representative of a majority of Bards.

For what it's worth, ARC/BRD used to be my runaway class. As in, the class I would play when I need a break from tanking. Heavensward pretty much killed that, but yeah.

And now, me spit-balling ideas:

- Insert cast times where it makes sense: One of the major problems with WM is that it gave cast times to almost everything. I've said this before, but giving Straight Shot/Heavy Shot cast times would make sense. Maybe Wide Volley. Windbite, Venomous Bite and Quick Nock shouldn't have cast times.
- Give BRDs combat music: While this clashes with the lore invented for BRDs, I think the job would benefit from having a system that allows them to use music in battle. I'd probably point to Kana from Pillars of Eternity and how he used chants while shooting at enemies with his blunderbuss, not to mention the clever Invocation system that game had. Imagine BRD activating a song that progresses over time, and depending on what verse of the song they're in can trigger unique effects that benefit the group or harm the enemy. You could even build it on top of the current gameplay by having the song progress with actions taken by you (weapon skills and use of cooldowns?).

[gumas]

Iam one of the people who dont mind WM to continue to exist and also dont mind if one day yoshi decide to remove WM, basically i dont mind either way.

I do however wish some of the change to WM like:
- shorten WM attack cast time to 1sec instead of 1.5sec
- auto attack is enable even with WM on but maybe reduce its damage by 50%
- no cooldown when you turn off WM so you can stance dance with it (very usefull for fight with heavy on mobility)
- just flat out further increase WM bonus damage, the lack of AA somehow make our 30% bonus attack seems bogus

Just apply 1 from those list and iam quite happy with it

I dont understand why they need to completely remove AA when WM is on, its basically give you 30% and at the same time removing 20% (give or take) from your initial dps, other dps class get flat increase dps with no penalty whatsoever when they get their "new gameplay" skill (botd, chakra, ley lines, wyrm trance), there is no penalty like "reduce damage" or "slower attack speed" and such, only BRD WM (2 penalty if you count "semi caster" gameplay too)