The Wanderer's Minuet and class-design frustrations

[gumas]

Iam one of the people who dont mind WM to continue to exist and also dont mind if one day yoshi decide to remove WM, basically i dont mind either way.

I do however wish some of the change to WM like:
- shorten WM attack cast time to 1sec instead of 1.5sec
- auto attack is enable even with WM on but maybe reduce its damage by 50%
- no cooldown when you turn off WM so you can stance dance with it (very usefull for fight with heavy on mobility)
- just flat out further increase WM bonus damage, the lack of AA somehow make our 30% bonus attack seems bogus

Just apply 1 from those list and iam quite happy with it

I dont understand why they need to completely remove AA when WM is on, its basically give you 30% and at the same time removing 20% (give or take) from your initial dps, other dps class get flat increase dps with no penalty whatsoever when they get their "new gameplay" skill (botd, chakra, ley lines, wyrm trance), there is no penalty like "reduce damage" or "slower attack speed" and such, only BRD WM (2 penalty if you count "semi caster" gameplay too)

[Greedalox]

- just flat out further increase WM bonus damage, the lack of AA somehow make our 30% bonus attack seems bogus

This is exceptionally confusing to me? Bards damage isn't low for what they're expected to do, so just a flat damage increase? That would just put them above and beyond. Unless you're referring to decreasing all of Bards potency's to compensate? Which case it's pretty much an overall nerf in the instances where you have to remove WM in a movement heavy ordeal.

[Cetonis]

Your premise that WM has any chance of going away is wrong-headed from the outset. It's highly unlikely that's going to happen; SE doesn't want any part of having to balance around free mobility. Remember that their only answer to this in 2.x was to use the rubbish "but it's a support" non-argument to "justify" crippling Bard's damage output to a point where no amount of mobility gains could ever make up for it.

People who gave up on Bard after trying WM for a dungeon or two, or who don't play it at all - sure, they might think that losing WM is a good idea. The ones who currently play Bard at a high level, understand that that's not the issue at all.

The issue is that the confluence of (WM + River of Blood + lots of other oGCDs) just doesn't function properly. It's anti-synergistic and leads to a myriad of decision points that - while yes, in a vacuum more decisions means more skill - some of these judgment calls are frankly bulls**t in nature and have no place within the design philosophy of this game.

Trying to figure out on the fly whether a DoT tick that started a refresh animation that finished some variable tenths of a second later, came before/during/after a half-second window on your cast bar, and then responding appropriately within the next half second - that kind of thing belongs in competitive fighting games where people count frames, not an MMO that ostensibly uses a 2.5s GCD to allow room for forethought and attending to mechanics.

By far the most plausible route SE could take to address this, would be to overhaul River of Blood in some way. There's a semi-common expectation of some manner of charge/stack or storage system, especially with Yoshi talking about class-specific UIs. But it's kind of an open question as to how they might ultimately go about it.

And there's always a chance Yoshi was alluding to a re-focus on songs. If you recall, when 3.0 launched every Bard song save for Swiftsong came with a 3s cast, and it took a lot of pressure for them to back off of that inch by inch. I wouldn't be surprised at all if there a rework aimed at making Bard songs powerful enough to justify giving them long casts again.

[MPNZ]

...

Yeah, they totally should try and lessen the amount of action upkeep for Bard, focus more on songs... Because I almost never know just when I have to sing right now... And, maybe allow us to still move and shoot, but removes the dmg buff when we move or sing, IMO. It's really jarring, but what really hurts is all of the actions that we're currently managing.

[The_Last_Dragoon]

snip

Yeah, though I kinda liked 3.X Bard because it required quicker thinking than some of the other classes and that the whole thing ran on a balance. I'm open to whatever changes they choose to bring in the next expansion, but I hope they don't throw out the OGCDs because that's something that I really do like about the class.

Yeah, they totally should try and lessen the amount of action upkeep for Bard, focus more on songs... Because I almost never know just when I have to sing right now... And, maybe allow us to still move and shoot, but removes the dmg buff when we move or sing, IMO. It's really jarring, but what really hurts is all of the actions that we're currently managing.

Are there a lot of actions? I think Summoner and Ninja are worse (Ninjas practically require macros and have insane upkeep), though honestly I think the whole game has become action heavy since Heavensward. That's why so many people are asking for an overhaul or at least some passives for 4.X.

On a side note, there are really only two songs you need to worry about, Mage's Ballad and Foe's Requiem. You should really only pop Battle Voice with FR, and MB should only be a last resort if the healers are hurting for mp. In terms of WM, you should really have it on 24/7, as there's very few occasions in PVE where you have to move that much while the boss is still targetable.

[MPNZ]

Are there a lot of actions? I think Summoner and Ninja are worse (Ninjas practically require macros and have insane upkeep), though honestly I think the whole game has become action heavy since Heavensward. That's why so many people are asking for an overhaul or at least some passives for 4.X.

On a side note, there are really only two songs you need to worry about, Mage's Ballad and Foe's Requiem. You should really only pop Battle Voice with FR, and MB should only be a last resort if the healers are hurting for mp. In terms of WM, you should really have it on 24/7, as there's very few occasions in PVE where you have to move that much while the boss is still targetable.

Yeah, it is a serious problem all the way across the board but WM has this really annoying ability to just form habits against singing. It literally runs counter to it's support functions, IMO.

[The_Last_Dragoon]

Yeah, it is a serious problem all the way across the board but WM has this really annoying ability to just form habits against singing. It literally runs counter to it's support functions, IMO.

I think that has more to do with the fact that a Bard will pretty much never sing when they're leveling and when solo. Especially with old content becoming easier due to veterans being thrown into the DF, you rarely ever get the chance to take advantage of your utility as a Bard outside of end-game content. So essentially for anyone who either took a break before hitting 50 or simply didn't play much of 2.X end game, there's no situational awareness for these players as to when they should sing.

[Shurrikhan]

The issue is that the confluence of (WM + River of Blood + lots of other oGCDs) just doesn't function properly. It's anti-synergistic and leads to a myriad of decision points that - while yes, in a vacuum more decisions means more skill - some of these judgment calls are frankly bulls**t in nature and have no place within the design philosophy of this game.

Trying to figure out on the fly whether a DoT tick that started a refresh animation that finished some variable tenths of a second later, came before/during/after a half-second window on your cast bar, and then responding appropriately within the next half second - that kind of thing belongs in competitive fighting games where people count frames, not an MMO that ostensibly uses a 2.5s GCD to allow room for forethought and attending to mechanics.

By far the most plausible route SE could take to address this, would be to overhaul River of Blood in some way. There's a semi-common expectation of some manner of charge/stack or storage system, especially with Yoshi talking about class-specific UIs. But it's kind of an open question as to how they might ultimately go about it.

That first part, especially, stuck out to me. I am an avid believe that more decisions = more complexity. But that assumes that each choice is not only balanced, but balanced against the effort required to make the judgement call, rather than merely following a static priority list. Bloodletter, for instance, is simply too damn strong for any of the alleged judgement calls to actually be judgement calls. The possibility, however faint when tracking DoT ticks and having a stable internet, of losing an entire 150 potency from an overriding refresh is simply too costly to warrant preceding with any other skill outside of an emergency silence. In effect, there are no decisions there. If anything, they are delegated to issues of Feint potency loss, late refreshes of Straight Shot in hopes of proccing Straighter Shot, etc. Now the mere fact that one mechanic that did not meet its potential may fall back on others suggests a kind of synergy (just as much as the mixed messages of <"wait, gotta spend Bloodletter if it refreshes in a half-second" > using an arsenal of oGCDs in a buff-window-intensive class> suggest an anti-synergy). But even in gestalt, there's just not that much there. And while I'd rather see its potential fleshed out than forgo Wanderer's Minuet completely (I find this sum of mechanics more entertaining than ARR Bard's sum), I can see why the gameplay frustrations outweigh the gameplay value for many.

I certainly cannot disagree with that second mechanic. I for one can barely single-weave without a VPN, and that only on low skill speed classes. As such, the double-weave is a rare treasure for me, which I enjoy when I have the funds to toss at WTFast, but could never suggest predicating game mechanics upon. And make no mistake, that level of mismatch between the global tick and personal GCD requires a very low and reliable ping in order to make these kinds of time-based judgement calls. What's more, those judgement calls are only even available (or, "necessary", in terms of intrusiveness) over certain modular common multiples, with large windows between. In its present state, it's just not reliable enough of a mechanic to really even think as... made intentionally, let alone skillfully.

Now, given how much the game does require double-weaving for optimal play, I don't honestly think that the longer GCD really suggests room for forethought or any sort of tactical aim. At best, it simply allows for the use of positionals in certain fights, whereas the way the game handles latency does more for stutter-stepping than the GCD itself. But there is no way this game should attempt that level of precision timing when the netcode is only average at best and server placements are so few.

My suggestions as they'd apply to Bard, then, are about the same as yours. Either you remove the global tick, and everyone's DoTs now tick at their current, non-snapshotted, GCD speed, which would be a hell of a revision, or you smooth out Bloodletter generation itself. However, I do not want to lose what few points of decision we have; I still want there to be risk, and a sense of relief when a Straighter Shot is readied for a double-weave (assuming I could ever experience one again), or warrant the use of a Feint just to keep my CDs in sync without any River of Blood overflow. I want it to feel technical. I just don't want it to feel like ground gears.

And there's always a chance Yoshi was alluding to a re-focus on songs. If you recall, when 3.0 launched every Bard song save for Swiftsong came with a 3s cast, and it took a lot of pressure for them to back off of that inch by inch. I wouldn't be surprised at all if there a rework aimed at making Bard songs powerful enough to justify giving them long casts again.

I really hope that ends up being the case. There are so many cast systems that could do a lot for this game, or MMOs in general, that have yet to be explored. Manual (over)charging, analog resources, incremental CD acceleration/refresh—any of those could add a huge amount of control and decision to Bard Songs, Paladin Oaths, to reduce button-bloat among otherwise identical Thaumaturge spells, etc.

Personally I just want more point-support/sabotage via our Songs, and for no song choice to be wholly irrelevant. The former would probably require another ability, and the latter that Swiftsong is reworked to be combat-usable and may even require a whole rework such that all classes use both MP and TP, or that song effects are, effectively, embonused split AoEs (stronger against fewer recipients, or based on need or range, such that Ballad stays nearly as powerful in low-caster compositions and Army in low-physical). That's a lot. Though I think it'd be worth it.

[gumas]

^and to add that out of 3 song, 2 of them give you 10% damage penalty which make people even more so to avoid using it

[Mirateski]

I like Minuet. I think GB feels a lot more natural on MCH, but taking time to aim and gauge a shot in exchange for more damage seems sensible to me.

Most of the poeple I see complaining about it are annoyed that they have to stand still? Like outside of maybe four or five specific fights why are you moving around so much anyway, gosh. There's not even that many skills to manage, not really - one of the reasons I have trouble with melee dps is that there's just so much to frigging do, not to mention positionals as well.

The idea of songs being an mp-cost buff with an aura sounds AMAZING, why on earth did they remove that??? We have battle litany and mantra as AoE spreads, not to mention AST's cards, and the idea of being able to pop TP song on a monk, MP song on the suffering healers, and foes on the enemy sounds fantastic. To be honest, I've heard a lot about how bard used to have the AoE raise as their lb3 and that would be nice to see returning as well, although MCH having it would be... odd. (And I really love the animation for satellite beam)

Plus, songs having an mp cost and done would remove that irritating double bard "oh hey I know I'll sing mages so the other bard can play foe longer" thing that so many bards have the weird idea is better than juggling foes for some bizarre reason.