To people who complain about "elites".

[caelumsixsmith]

OK, so lemme try and understand something. You guys were using PF, right? If so, why didn't you ask everyone before you started if they were familiar with what you wanted to achieve? Even if the description says so, communication can be the key difference between a good and a bad run. I've seen many cases where a quiet party would get wiped pretty easily in content other than the ones everyone's talking about here. As soon as people started communicating and explaining mechanics, it all worked out. Low DPS is easy to spot without a parser, indeed, so what's the problem with suggesting a minute or two so that people can better understand what the party intends to achieve and perhaps google their rotations?

If you know someone is not doing their rotations properly (ofc, assuming you know the class they're playing), suggest a change. When I started playing someone pointed out I should use Bio II --> Miasma --> Bio instead of whatever I was doing. It was fine, they just said "just a hint, but you get more out of this combo instead of what you're doing." More recently I was partied with two players who had such awful DPS, it was difficult to carry large pulls bc mobs wouldn't die as fast as they should. The girl was SMN and since SMN and SCH rotations are somewhat similar (at least below 50), I gave some suggestions to what she could do. Unlike myself, who took the advice and improved my playstyle, she completely ignored me and continued to do what she was doing. Neither you or your friend seem to be people who will say "are you stupid? You're not doing your rotation properly, you dumbass", so the chances of someone getting angry at you won't be as many.

FFXIV has an amazing community, but just like every other game or any community of any kind, it has its bad apples. Skipping the opportunity to instruct someone for fear they'll get angry at your knowledge doesn't seem to be a good approach. You will never know how a specific person will react unless you try it. But ofc, if you do call yourself "elite", then that could be a problem. Perhaps try omitting that fact, as even skilled players who don't consider themselves part of any elite (and these people exist, they just so happen not to care about such titles) will likely stigmatize you for saying you're better than anyone there. Should you have a really high rank proven by official means, then sure, you are part of an elite and can call yourself such. But if you do, know that a lot of people will perceive that as arrogance and their reaction might not be the friendliest.

Also, as Eloah said, suggesting that the group should improve is more encouraging than calling out one individual. In your particular case, the group was indeed the problem. Your PL would probably have noticed the low DPS of one or two members, but apparently, all of them weren't as good as either of you expected.

[Jetstream_Fox]

When most dps players expect a carry, bringing no food buffs and not even practicing their rotation, then yeah, no matter how many you bring in to the fight, the outcome will be bad :/

I know plenty of dps players who don't use food buffs, myself included, yet I don't expect to be carried. Yet I've gotten my relic done and have ZEX down to the final phase, mind you, I got him down to the final phase before I got my relic. But I mean I guess we can say if a tank doesn't drop any VIT buffs or a heal doesn't drop any Mind buffs, they are also going make the run unsuccessful.

Buffs in this regard only help when you know the content, same with your rotation. If people are wiping from mechanical issues you can't expect anything to develop until those mechanics are understood and are able to executed properly. I can't go into a fight and know exactly when to apply Foes if the fight is brand new, nor do I know exactly when I should hit CDs, these things come with learning the fight through and through.

More people need to understand this and then you will see improvement within player bases. Until then going in with the mindset that players will fail because X,Y and Z is going to keep the communities from growing.

[Ralts]

I

Well, food buff is only one thing, but it can surely help with downing extreme bosses quicker. Also foodbuff without understanding how your rotation works won't help either lol

[Yeol]

@caelumsixsmith

A minute or two to google their rotation means they were not ready to jump into such content.
That is the whole point i wanted people to understand.
If they got called out or kicked they will blame the "elites" not themselves.

We did explain them the mechanics before everything. We've seen all possible patterns and trained for them with this party.
We did not kick them or call them out.

We kept training and our best was nearly 20%. We also rest time twice.

And you are asking we should teach them rotations too? When 2 of them are only 100 dps above the MT? That is soooo wrong D:

People who joined (with the exception of those 3) do not want to waste their time teaching someone their rotation on top of giving call outs and practicing from ZERO even though this party was going for a kill.

Are you going to deny what we did to them?

I'm sorry. This whole thread goes to people who are similar to those 3 dps. Please don't jump into such content when you are not ready. You'll do more harm than good.
Not everyone is going to be kind to let you stay.

If you want to learn and get better at your rotation ask your FC/LS/Friends to help you out.

[Driavna]

People should be mature enough to understand when they are not ready for X content, but same can be said about players leading parties with poor social skills.

[ShaneDawn]

Because, let's say I am not doing well as a DPS, and someone is parsing it, if I am kicked from the group, for "some reason", and I suspect a parser was involved, I can report the group and have them banned or something else. Regardless of their lacks use of a parser, they are a breach of the terms of service, and if you are caught, for whatever reason, there will be serious repercussions.

So, despite the fact that if your performance may have been detrimental to the group progression, you would report someone that may or may not have been using a tool to gauge your performance?

Bannable offense or not, getting kicked out of an end-game group is most likely a sign of the said person not meeting the standards of the party. If the party is described as "High DPS Farm/Kill Party, don't join if your DPS is low", are we as DPS players still entitled to under-perform merely because parsers are against the ToS? Being a DPS player is a free ticket to eventually get carried by better players not being allowed to kick the said player for not doing their fundamental job?

Okay, admittedly this got wordsy, and might've run on longer than needed, but I just wanted to give you my stance. Basically, parsers should never enter the equation, period, but you aren't wrong to want to encourage a group to do better, it just needs to be addressed as a group issue not a personal "individual" issue. Try wording things as suggestions for the group and things should improve greatly.

While I agree that end-game content is a group effort first and foremost, that doesn't mean that any kind of individual should be carried through the content under the guise of "team work".

Example: Party DPS is as follows, in an end-game raid/ex trial, kill party
Black Mage - 2300
Dragoon - 2250
Bard - 2200
Monk - 1200

Party is wiping because they are meeting hard enrages and/or seeing unnecessary amount of cumbersome mechanics. At this point, is the party supposed to clear the instance with the monk, because it's "wrong" to kick someone for their lack of DPS? Should the whole party be disbanded for the sake of the "teamwork" in this case not being sufficient? For a reason or another, kicking Healers and Tanks for failing to do their role is perfectly fine in the eyes of the community. However, kicking DPS players due to low DPS is often viewed as a taboo, or greeted with replies like "it's a group effort, you can't just single out a person X". I would hope that the DPS players would carry at least a modicum of respect towards the party to be able to do their rotations properly, or at least enough pride to not whine if they get kicked when not performing their role to an acceptable degree.

Another point to consider: your main concern seems to be that party ideals and DPS are often regarded in a more individualistic, selfish view than as a group effort. Personally I would love to have an environment where people adhered group effort above individual values.... but that would also require everyone to really take others into consideration, and do their utmost best as a part of the group. The problem is, that a lot of people are happy to be carried through content, or can't really see or care if they are in fact under-performing. I would argue, that the act of willingly entering content unprepared or under-performing, or shunning others for kicking them afterwards, is as disrespectful and self-centered as the other way around.

Group-oriented thinking works in JP Data center, because people generally prepare better for content and don't want to be a burden to others. In NA/EU Data centers, even in end-game content, people often value their own "fun" over everyone else in the party and are more worried about the party being a burden to them than the other way around.

But basically this boils down to the parser discussion again. I don't disagree with some of your assessments, but I think you are overly optimistic about people adhering to join for a coordinated group effort. People would need to first change their way of thinking, and really take others into consideration when entering end-game content.

[Taika]

If nothing else, they should make beating SSS dummy for a fight mandatory before you're able to queue for that fight in raid finder. Without allowing parsers, that's the only way I can think of that would make some people understand they'll have to work on their rotations and / or play style before they're ready to enter certain content without being carried.

[Rennies]

I'd never parse (I have plenty of friends that do), but I won't hesitate to kick someone if they're doing less damage on their main job than I do on my side jobs :L one of them being WHM.

At the end of the day, Extreme is not to be taken lightly, and if you come inside clear parties without realizing you need to use DoTs as Summoner or refresh Enochian as BLM with B4, you shouldn't be complaining at all.

[DamianFatale]

Sorry but everyone has the right to play any content they want.

[Rennies]

Sorry but everyone has the right to play any content they want.

And I have the right to kick you when you put in 0 effort! Not sorry.