3.5/4.0 Speculation & Discussion (Spoilers)

[Cilia]

As for the whole 'Garlemald was also meant to be evil' angle? Eh, I doubt that very much. It's no secret that there's a handful of vocal posters on this board who don't particularly like Garlemald and fight tooth and claw to try and paint them as stereotypical villains at every turn with little to no justification for their actions. [...] Those of who did some digging and pieced together the subtle hints that existed, however, figured out pretty early on that was there much more to Garlemald than what was immediately apparent.

Thankfully we can take comfort in our righteousness, for we were correct in our speculation and much of what was revealed in the lore book was similar to what had been speculated. So I, for one, look forward to seeing what the future brings for Garlemald and I have faith that the developers really do have a satisfying, morally grey approach to their ongoing storyline.

I am still waiting for this information. As I am a bit tight on money right now (buying $50 Magic cards I'll rarely get to use because people are tryhards doesn't help), I don't have a Lore Book of my own. However, all I have heard in regards to the Garleans' motivations is that they were a small nation that was abused by their neighbors until they developed magitek.

Regrettably, I believe this justifies neither their aggressive expansionist policies nor the cruelty with which they treat conquered peoples. Garlean war orphans? "Innocent" Garlean citizens killed in insurgency attacks? Disasters wrought by use of Allagan tech they don't understand? None of that would happen if they'd just stop. Relinquish the conquered territory and go home. Act in self-defense, but do not provoke other nations into war, and do not go conquering them "because we can." While it's rare of me to say such a thing, the Garleans bring such ill fortune on themselves by way of their imperialism and cruelty.

I'm not saying the Garleans can't shift into a morally neutral stance, but aside from their methods for saving Hydaelyn being technically valid (if highly immoral and often shortsighted), there is little grey in their philosophy, which effectively boils down to "Go conquer whatever you can, and damn anyone who tries to stop you!" They have similar goals but their Machiavellian approach to it is hardly "grey;" since said goals also include aggressive expansion it's hard to paint them in a morally ambiguous light.

When the producer has said that what easily qualifies as the most progressive and sympathetic Garlean (Gaius) was never meant to be sympathetic, you might want to take a step back and reevaluate. I'm not trying to paint Garlemald as stereotypical villains - they do that themselves.

Trying to force them into a moral grey area, when it's clear their only reason for doing anything close to moral is so they can still have territory to conquer and people to oppress, doesn't seem particularly wise. Again, I'm not saying they couldn't become morally grey or neutral or even good, but as it stands it would take major reforms, and Varis "Let's Become Allag 2.0!" zos Galvus and Zenos don't seem likely candidates to make those steps.

Here's hoping Nero doesn't backstab us with Omega...

[Theodric]

Well, as always we will just have to agree to disagree. There's a lot of people on this board who are very stubborn (myself included) are who are unlikely to change their opinion on the matter. So far a lot of my own head-canon and speculation regarding Garlemald has been confirmed by the lore book itself or in-game quest text and that, to me, paints a clear picture of a 'morally grey' Garlemald. Some people will see Garlemald as the worst villains ever instead - but there's always going to be people who read into things differently. Some people recognise the complexities that come with the more dubious aspects of morality. Others do not.

It's always been that way across the history of the Final Fantasy franchise though - or with pretty much any setting that explores dark themes. The Walking Dead and A Song of Ice and Fire are also excellent examples.

A character or organisation doing something bad in a fictional setting can't be fairly judged by real world modern day morality either. Garlemald is justified from its own perspective in doing what it feels is best not only for Garlemald but Hydaelyn as a whole. They may destroy themselves in their desperation to not be crushed underfoot like they were in the past but it's not as if they're doing the stuff that they're doing for kicks or to twirl mustaches.

Maybe I just have a different insight into such things due to witnessing war myself firsthand. It's not something I'd wish on anybody but in my blunt opinion? Civilians tend to sugarcoat a lot of things when it comes to morality and try to twist things into simplistic 'good guys' and 'bad guys' even when a particular setting isn't as trivial as that at all.

At any rate...3.5 is almost upon us so we don't have very long to wait until there's fresh material to discuss and pick apart for hints for the future.

[Cilia]

While the Garleans do not do what they do purely for evil, Gaius himself literally said that he was trying to conquer Eorzea because he could. Yes, they do do this for kicks.

It is only right that I should take your realm. For none among you has the power to stop me!

... while how that attitude came about can be explained, that doesn't justify it or their actions. The Garleans are not strictly speaking evil, but that doesn't mean their actions are justified to anyone but themselves - and everyone is justified from their own perspective, so that doesn't really fly.

Patronizing me (and others) is not going to prove your point. If you understand the moral complexity of the Garleans' actions, pray enlighten us. Otherwise I am fine with leaving it as is, because yes many people are very stubborn and unlikely to change their opinion and doing this dance for the dozenth time is futile. The patronizing attitude...

[...]Some people recognise the complexities that come with the more dubious aspects of morality. Others do not. ...Maybe I just have a different insight into such things due to witnessing war myself firsthand...

...doesn't help your case, though.

Side note: You are not the only one with firsthand experience of war.

[Theodric]

Well, like I said - we'll just have to agree to disagree. Perhaps we should just drop the matter of Garlemald's actions being justified or not - here, at least. It tends to derail threads rather quickly and ends up with posters just regurgitating the same points...usually between the same few individuals at that. It was not my intention to offend, so apologies if that is the case. As you can guess I'm just very passionate about Garlean lore and I'm well aware that it's an uphill battle when it comes to justifying their motives. For me, though, I see it from their perspective whilst others do it from Eorzea's or the real world's perspective.

But, enough about that for now, perhaps?

I found this on Reddit and figured it'd be well worth linking here since there's a few new scraps of lore to be found:

http://gamerescape.com/2017/01/12/ga...-3-5-and-more/

[myahele]

With Heavensward nearing its end, I wonder if the mysteries surrounding the Heart of Sabik and what lies beneath Silver Tear lake will be revealed? I think the devs said we'll learn more about those in Heavensward.

Hydaelyn received a boost in power thanks to the Crystals of Light + Minfilia going to the 1st Shard world to absorb the excess light, so there's no reason for her to be as silent as she was. Would also be nice for Midgardsormr to start talking again.

[Rocl]

With Heavensward nearing its end, I wonder if the mysteries surrounding the Heart of Sabik and what lies beneath Silver Tear lake will be revealed? I think the devs said we'll learn more about those in Heavensward.

Hydaelyn received a boost in power thanks to the Crystals of Light + Minfilia going to the 1st Shard world to absorb the excess light, so there's no reason for her to be as silent as she was. Would also be nice for Midgardsormr to start talking again.

I was really looking forward to Keeper (Hard) being a MSQ dungeon or something going forward when they set the early pattern in 3.X, but 3.4 ruined that with Gubal

We were supposed to hear about both of those things during the 3.X series you're right... and we haven't... which is why I'm hoping the 3.5 trailer might not contain anything from 3.55!

(I just now saw GE's write-up, RIP MY DREAM)

[Theodric]

Bear in mind it's possible that we might revisit Keeper of the Lake as a mini duty - much like we did for Aetherochemical Research Facility and The Vault.

[Berethos]

Bear in mind it's possible that we might revisit Keeper of the Lake as a mini duty - much like we did for Aetherochemical Research Facility and The Vault.

Quite possibly, though I feel like they will end up saving the return to that area for a big reveal or to connect it to something bigger than dealing with Omega and Garlemald - returning to Midgardsormr's body in a place like that feels like the kind of thing you'd save for some really hefty stuff...the kind of reveals that end up coming late in a game's life - critical information about the early days of Hydaelyn and/or the time when Middy arrived (or was created, or whatever his origin is in truth).

Could always be wrong, but it's my opinion we won't be back there for a while.

[Balipu]

But, enough about that for now, perhaps?

I found this on Reddit and figured it'd be well worth linking here since there's a few new scraps of lore to be found:

http://gamerescape.com/2017/01/12/ga...-3-5-and-more/

Quick recap: 3.5(as in Part 1) will end with a cliffhanger, The Griffin will be around for 4.0, Yugiri will have an introduction to explain her sudden reappearance, and apparently her absence was planned from the beginning.

[Eyvind]

With Heavensward nearing its end, I wonder if the mysteries surrounding the Heart of Sabik and what lies beneath Silver Tear lake will be revealed? I think the devs said we'll learn more about those in Heavensward.
.

I don't have my Encyclopedia with me right now, but I could have sworn that it says somewhere that Silvertear Lake was where magic/aether flowed into the world, and that Midgardsormr when he came to Hydaelyn was charged with its protection in exchange for a home for him and his brood...?