Is progressive content or the community to blame for player skill gap?

[bswpayton]

Alright, i know where you coming from, you have a good amount of valid points if not all, but let me tell you something.
This game is divided into two, the skill you need to perform well on your class | the skill you need to perform to go against content (boss|raids|dungeons).
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I agree with you on the know your class and watch videos , but what I don't do is call content easy unless it actually is, because to be easy it would actually need to be easy to most people and I just dont feel as tho thats the case.

Otherwise why do so many people stop at the hard mood versions why is it so hard to get fc members to do a sync run with me but if I ask to do a pony farm then they are all for it. I do not see these mechanics as easy I find them as doable and possible but easy is sathasha , or all of the lowbie dungeons. There are hurdles thrown out there for different players just based on experience or what they are use to from other games. Thats the issue I see so much the word easy just being thrown out there so much thats why I said lets not look at things through our on lens, now are dungeons easier than extreme primals of course they are, but for some even dungeons can be challenging. When I think of easy , I think if I que up for this in duty finder then its no pressure Im going to be able to do this with ease get in and get out, I dont go into any primal thinking this because the content was not meant to be easy. Before I cleared even shiva ex, she is easier than some of the other primals but she isnt easy she isnt sathisa and several parties abandoned and left , people still whip on gaurda is it easier than other extreme primals yes but again it is no guildhiest level 10 and some people will find it pretty difficult.

I did ifrit hard mood the other day and like three people died , but maybe that was a degree of difficulty for them who am I to judge what that bar is. So yes knowing your class reading tool tips I personally I agree with and will always try to , do and like someone posted earlier I like tab based mmos for a reason I dont dps because of the samething he said. I can do basic tank rotations and I can heal but I do tend to stay away from dps for one the ques and for a set based rotation but if I did and I was lookin at playing more summoner I did look at guides and follow mr happy and ms tech on youtube. But at the same time knowing your class, I think thats alot easier than the mechanics in this game , and I dont know if its even acceptable, but I really want to make a thread on what games are more difficult than this one. Cause Ive played other mmos and this one has some of the more dynamic mechanics from what Ive played of course their are harder ones but people act like this is the easiest of easy content when I have played some mmos that would put that lie to shame.

[Kosmos992k]

In my opinion there will always be a skill gap. You can point to things like the progression system, lack of proper tutorials, unhelpful communities and all the rest; however, when you get down to it one thing will always be true: those that desire to learn and play well will, those that don't care won't.

One other factor that players should perhaps consider more often is this; there are two broad groups of players, those who will play end game and those who won't - often because they do not enjoy that kind of content. There are specific skills and ways of playing that are required to raid and play current end-game well, those skills are not required to play the non raid, non end-game content. When those two groups meet in DF, it's incredibly unrealistic to expect players who don't do end-game/raid to suddenly play like a veteran raider. That's not going to happen. It will be perceived as a skill gap, and someone, on either side of the clash of style will post a rant on the forum about it. It would be easier for everyone to relax, understand and get on with playing the game and having fun.

[DarkB]

I agree with you on the know your class and watch videos , but what I don't do is call content easy unless it actually is, because to be easy it would actually need to be easy to most people and I just dont feel as tho thats the case.

Otherwise why do so many people stop at the hard mood versions why is it so hard to get fc members to do a sync run with me but if I ask to do a pony farm then they are all for it. I do not see these mechanics as easy I find them as doable and possible but easy is sathasha , or all of the lowbie dungeons. There are hurdles thrown out there for different players just based on experience or what they are use to from other games. Thats the issue I see so much the word easy just being thrown out there so much thats why I said lets not look at things through our on lens, now are dungeons easier than extreme primals of course they are, but for some even dungeons can be challenging. When I think of easy , I think if I que up for this in duty finder then its no pressure Im going to be able to do this with ease get in and get out, I dont go into any primal thinking this because the content was not meant to be easy. Before I cleared even shiva ex, she is easier than some of the other primals but she isnt easy she isnt sathisa and several parties abandoned and left , people still whip on gaurda is it easier than other extreme primals yes but again it is no guildhiest level 10 and some people will find it pretty difficult.

I did ifrit hard mood the other day and like three people died , but maybe that was a degree of difficulty for them who am I to judge what that bar is. So yes knowing your class reading tool tips I personally I agree with and will always try to , do and like someone posted earlier I like tab based mmos for a reason I dont dps because of the samething he said. I can do basic tank rotations and I can heal but I do tend to stay away from dps for one the ques and for a set based rotation but if I did and I was lookin at playing more summoner I did look at guides and follow mr happy and ms tech on youtube. But at the same time knowing your class, I think thats alot easier than the mechanics in this game , and I dont know if its even acceptable, but I really want to make a thread on what games are more difficult than this one. Cause Ive played other mmos and this one has some of the more dynamic mechanics from what Ive played of course their are harder ones but people act like this is the easiest of easy content when I have played some mmos that would put that lie to shame.

well i guess we are entering the world of "subjective" here, what might be hard for you, might be easy for other people and vice versa.

I personally dont think the game content at the moment is very hard, some things yes require more tries and more dedication, but there is nothing like the old a3s Humanoid.

The thing with dungeons is that they are way too easy, you can, in almost all cases, ignore every mechanic, litterally stand on everything, eat all the damage, and the healer can outheal the incoming damage. Now this also shouldnt fall into "easy" category but lower in my opinion.

Personally i consider easy to learn any content that produces a pattern, rotation, sequence of skills, because once you learn that, you are done. When a mechanics happens, you already know what is the next mechanic and you are prepared.

this is why in my opinion (and i agree some other people might find it harder), pattern mechanic fights are easy to learn, especially if you have them written down and analyzed step by step.

All the fights in game have a pattern you can simply write it down and memorize, with that in mind you can start learning and getting better at the content, some people react faster, some dont, but i dont really feel like this game is hard at all.

I stopped playin xiv because of boredom for a very long time and i tried WoW which i always avoided like plague, now i dont wanna derail the topic into WoW comment, but that game is 10x easier than Xiv. Its litterally a braindead stomp, dungeon after dungeon, the mechanics introduced by mythic+ are so few that they are un noticeable.

the only difference is in damage done by monsters, some affix "diablo 3 style" and the hp of the monsters. Thats it. I was telling my friends about how i couldnt believe people could play that game (that also requires an addon even to move elements on UI, its simply retarded how bad it is, culdnt believe a game in subscription mode was in that status) being so easy. after a single week from start, never played before, fresh install, my brewmaster monk was iLvL 856.

The only way to improve my gear would been 24 man raid on highest difficulty. Its like saying after 1 week of FFXIV the only way to get an upgrade on your gear is to go Alexander Savage. That is how bad that game is.

So in a way i think WoW is 5x easier than XIV at least for me. Maybe because im used at XIV? I dont know i think this is subjective, i find easy to learn xiv mechanics, and incredibly easy to learn WoW mechanic. As another example i can tell you that Aion PVE endgame is harder than any other game i've ever played. Steel Wall Bastion is a nightmare in terms of difficulty compared to WoW and XIV.

Now back to xiv, i dont know why your FC doesnt do content with you, or prefer to pony farm, in the end its all about who you play with but some people dont really enjoy putting too much effort into improving, let alone help others.

Im a helper and always will be, people know me for being helpful on everything, but thats how i like to be, mmos are a multiplayer game where if you lack the community aspect, its basically useless to play, just go play diablo. So i hope you will find some people willing to help you and to play with you and explain you content and such, maybe look for another FC, trust me is very rare to find a FC that supports new player.

I am a very very old xiv and final fantasy player, i know where you coming from, i just believe your FC isnt dedicated enough to learn extreme fights, maybe because they dont care, or maybe because back then they got carried, or simply maybe becayse they are bored, i dont know.

Also yeah regarding ifrit, ifrit is quite old content but sometimes if you dont don that content regulary even very old players forget a mechanic sequence and step on a fire or get thrown off a platform on Titan lol, happens
Game mechanic is all about repeat and memorize, i dont know what more advice can i give you if not try to find some people like you that wants to get better and progress, even tho the game at the moment is pretty dead, its very hard to find active FC :/

[Kosmos992k]

The thing with dungeons is that they are way too easy, you can, in almost all cases, ignore every mechanic, litterally stand on everything, eat all the damage, and the healer can outheal the incoming damage. Now this also shouldnt fall into "easy" category but lower in my opinion.

Yes, and no.

Yes because you pretty much overgear the entire game except current end-game if you have current end-game gear, you can do as you suggest to an extent.

But if the dungeon is fully sync'd, say for example Aurum Vale, you can't. So very often people say things like what you did about older content being so very, very easy. But in truth it's only that way because of power creep, overgearing and insufficiently effective or strict level/ilvl sync. ignoring mechanics might bmake a dungeon easier, but it does not make the player more skilled.

[Ama_Hamada]

Most of the people are LAZY to an embarassing level. to learn your class it will take not more than 3 days, thats how easy it is. but you need to want it, you need to not wait for someone to help you, go out and find guides, use google, type whatever job you wanna learn "drg xiv rotation" for example.

goodluck

Shouldn't there be something in the game to discourage that? I do not care as much if someone on a DPS class is under-performing, it is tanks. What if you have a tank that never uses cool downs while in a DPS stance in places where it is unacceptable? Then it just over stresses the healer and the healer gets mouthed off at. Same can be said about people fast pulling city, and locking people out because of it.

[Clethoria]

There's a skill gap and there's an experience gap. I think a lot of people tend to confuse the two (especially here), and that the skill gap isn't nearly as wide as most people think.

The experience gap is caused by impatient players who can't be bothered to teach others how to get through content, and who leave at the first sign of trouble.

I ran Longstop (Hard) with a friend via Duty Finder because we figured it would be an easy enough run and it wasn't a big deal to gather an entire party. Healer DCs, Tank decides to just leave, new healer comes around- sees there's no Tank, leaves, comes back again likely because que and leaves again when seeing it's us again. May as well had made a full party because we ended up getting people we knew to join us.

This is why I tell new players about PF and encouraging others to join a (mainly my) Free Company as well as make friends.

[Malzian]

One other factor that players should perhaps consider more often is this; there are two broad groups of players, those who will play end game and those who won't - often because they do not enjoy that kind of content. There are specific skills and ways of playing that are required to raid and play current end-game well, those skills are not required to play the non raid, non end-game content. When those two groups meet in DF, it's incredibly unrealistic to expect players who don't do end-game/raid to suddenly play like a veteran raider. That's not going to happen. It will be perceived as a skill gap, and someone, on either side of the clash of style will post a rant on the forum about it. It would be easier for everyone to relax, understand and get on with playing the game and having fun.

Actually, I'd say there's 3 broad groups of players, but it seems most people only think in strokes of 'casual' and 'raider'. I, personally, don't raid... but I'd hardly consider myself casual considering all I've done in the game. I can handle most of the harder content, I just choose not to do it, partly because of time constraints. That makes me neither a raider nor a casual, so therefore... midcore.

That still doesn't change the fact that there's always going to be a skill gap somewhere. Why that gap is there or how big it is varies, and people are going to fight and bitch back and forth over it like they do every other little thing in life. The only point that can be made is that you're going to have people who are tolerant and people who are not... once again, just a matter of people being people/

[DarkB]

Shouldn't there be something in the game to discourage that? I do not care as much if someone on a DPS class is under-performing, it is tanks. What if you have a tank that never uses cool downs while in a DPS stance in places where it is unacceptable? Then it just over stresses the healer and the healer gets mouthed off at. Same can be said about people fast pulling city, and locking people out because of it.

completely agree with that, bare with me i took dps example, but that can be applied to every class, tank/healer/dps, everyone needs to learn their role.
And the point you make is the exact reason why the game is so easy, "shouldn't there be something in the game to discourage that?" Yes there should be, the fact that there is not, is the reason why the game is easy.
Gearing up in this game is ridicolously stupid, they just throw gear at you making almost 99% of the content obsolete and making you outgeared for almost everything, which brings us back to the facerolling dungeons.

Now after you faceroll a dungeon and you get presented with a challenging fight (not that challenging but for the sake of speaking) like savage, you are caught off guard, because in there you are not overgeared.

Reason why you must never measure your knowledge on your class by just going into a dungeon, you need to parse/practice/look for guides about the class, then apply to content. Most people dont take a suggestion in the good way, but they take it as a critic even when your intentions are the most helpful ones, because they think they are doing great and they dont want to take an advice from an unknown person in their party. They dont even consider that they are doing something wrong, this is what is frustrating.

I am personally a tank a dps and a healer, i strongly believe that playing one role only will just make you worse, you need vision and awareness of all other classes and roles, so yeah i know how frustrating is being a healer when you have bad tanks, or bad dps that forces you to dps on their place, or bosses that dont die so the fight gets dragged forever requiring you to heal to the impossible. But see? these are simply lack of knowledge on their respective classes, nothing more, mechanic is always secondary.

When people will stop with the mentality "oh let other people do the job in my spot", nothing will really change. When you enter a content you should at least be prepared for that, because you are not playing alone, there are other people with you, and its extremely selfish to waste their time or even make the game unfun because of that. Unless everybody agreed on a learning pt and such.

But again, the reason behind all this mess is simpy one, lazyness and lack of will to get better. On any level, from tank to heal.

[Dreggit]

As somebody who is the new player who recently got into 3.0 content, I have done every single extreme Primal boss synched, repeatedly bashing my face against a difficulty wall, until I understood the mechanics and was able to complete it with a random Duty Finder party and it is some of the most fun that I've had in this game

and when somebody in those duties say screw this or get good scrub because I'm a newer player who is actively learning mechanics who watches videos of fights before doing the content why should I be bashed for trying to learn to be a better player? I would rather repeatedly fail and have fun doing so then just cheese the content for no reward.

To have come so close to beating Ramah Ex, I know that when I do it'll be an awesome feeling just like how it felt beating Titan extreme with a random Duty Finder group.

[SeriousxSarcasm]

snip-
and when somebody in those duties say screw this or get good scrub because I'm a newer player who is actively learning mechanics who watches videos of fights before doing the content why should I be bashed for trying to learn to be a better player? I would rather repeatedly fail and have fun doing so then just cheese the content for no reward.

To have come so close to beating Ramah Ex, I know that when I do it'll be an awesome feeling just like how it felt beating Titan extreme with a random Duty Finder group.

/highfive It's so hard to get anyone to run synced content. I couldn't get anyone in my old FC to run GARUDA NORMAL with me for MSQ, for goodness sake!

I dunno, wiping and failing has never really bothered me (until people get bitchy lol). I remember queuing for Urth's Fount for weeks, determined to beat that fight synced because I didn't know anyone in game that would run it with me. I never did beat it lol. The few times I got a party that stuck it out to the bitter end (like, we got kicked out of the Duty because we ran out of time LOL), we spent so much time wiping to mechanics, that by the time we could reliably get to the last phase, the DPS check beat us every time, and we only had 15 minutes to work on that part hahaha. "One more try? I think we got it this time" "Dude, we've got 2 minutes, it's not even possible to burn him that quickly." But we still pulled again. XD

I just think we're in the minority is all. Of course, I don't get to do runs like that often, since I just don't have the time.

Funnily enough, the most determined DF parties I ended up with consisted of newbies, probably because we all just wanted to learn the fight.