What is with this game and half-naked women as bosses?

[Claire_Pendragon]

Can someone explain to me how this thread that was about getting MORE nakedness (just, to be fair, for the other gender as well) turned into "OMG how dare you complain about too much female nudity!!"
That's..not what the OP was about, unless my reading comprehension is completely failing me right now. No one says to dress Shiva, Garuda, Sophia, Echidna and Adamantine and so on more conservatively.
No one even complains about pretty half-naked primals/monsters at all.

It would simply be nice to see more primal/monster eye candy for those who find male bodies attractive instead of females.

While I havnt read every post, but from the ones I have read, most of which weren't complaining about "Dont complain about nudity!" but instead criticizing how the OP perceived and presented the question.
If they feel there isnt THAT much more female nudity in comparison to male nudity, then their statements make plenty sense, as they are trying to correct the OP. Most of what I have seen, never actually said they DIDNT want it, except one post I saw.

[REPROBEAN_CHILD]

I'm fishing for a point here, but what I think Roukiz is referring to are the more 'humanoid' bosses. As a note that's related, most humanoid female bosses retain a mostly female figure with enhancements, whereas the male humanoid bosses typically have exaggerated limbs, muscles etc. I'll use the primals and eikons as an example, but as a whole, it does perpetuate throughout the game in other duties.
In the primal category, the more humanoid bosses are Garuda, Titan, Ramuh, Shiva, Ravana, Thordan, Sephirot and Sophia. All of females (Garuda, Shiva, Sophia) all have very nicely developed feminine figures, which would not be strange to see in modern day society (excluding feathers, icicle hair etc., just speaking of the figure) [as a note, all three are...I don't like the term half-naked, so let's say display their assetts very well]. However, of the males, the only ones who retains a humanoid form which would be acceptable in society are Thordan and Ramuh, and both are disguised behind robes, heavy armour and a majestic beard. The masculine figures of Titan, Ravana and Sephirot are more alien than normal, with additional limbs, skin tone, exaggerated muscle groups. In a way, they're not relatable to human beings, despite being a humanoid figure, contrary to the female primals. That's why cosplayers so often depict Shiva, Garuda, Ramuh, and perhaps now Sophia, but rarely any of the others.

Another example will be the transformation pomanders in PotD. Of the three, two are undeniably feminine, and one is undeniably masculine. The Succubus and Kurubi both retain feminine humanoid forms, with the Succubus having extra stuff attached that doesn't detract from its humanoid figure, however, the manticore is undeniably NOT humanoid, even though it's jacked with muscles.

I haven't analysed other aspects and duties, but I surmise it'll be the same. There's no denying there's "male eye candy", but it's not humanely 'relatable'.

One thing I would point out are that some of the female bosses (particularly the female primals) were based on historical figures within FFXIV's lore. That's most likely why Primals like Shiva, Garuda, and even Thordan look the most humanoid. Shiva was based on Saint Shiva, an Elezen, who was known as Hraesvelgr's "lover." Being known as a "lover" has an sensual connotation, which may explain why Shiva looks the way she does. In Garuda's case (based the the lore book), she's based on an Allagan commander, who gave orders to the Iksalions. The Ixali would create Garuda as a primal, not only based on this commander's image, but with characteristics they themselves have, by giving her wings and feathers. The Ixali are also naked, so that's something to consider as well lol. Also, the succubi were created from the bodies of dead women, according to the Triple Triad Card.

Sophia of the Warring Triad is no doubt based on her design from FFVI and was design to appear as an actual goddess. Sophia seems quite inspired by feminine Greek goddesses, doesn't she? In fact, figures within various religious mythologies are majorly present in all FF titles. As for Calofisteri, she's basically like Sophia: faithful rendition of a previous design, but from FFV. Calofisteri also used to be a Mhachi sorceress, which is why she's humanoid at all in FFXIV.

[Reinha]

I agree with you Claire. Chippendales or bare chested Highlanders do nothing for me. The protectiveness of Haurchefant, sophisticated charm of Aymeric, intellect of Urianger and the ruggedness of Thancred are far more attractive qualities than some bared pecks or arms. I cannot help but notice that those are signs of the man being able to provide safety, resources, a good social standing and shelter and thus my desire for those qualities is probably rooted in biology, but I like what I like. There is some fan art about Aymeric that makes me think I'm not the only one who'd rather look at him than, say, Raubahn.

Skimpily clad strong and sexy females are actually my power fantasy and it feels twice as good to beat a goddess like Shiva compared to a dime a dozen monster. She is so amazing but the fight proves my character is even better. Some people say it's catering to teenage boys and I'm shm because I feel just as catered to. Win win? It feels weird to me that people are asking for "man candy" to beat as bosses when to me it would make more sense that men get more of their power fantasies to defeat. I cannot be attracted to something that's trying to kill me! In any case I think adding more half naked males as bosses is fine if there really is a demographic for it.

As a last note I don't agree how Magic-Mal put big boobs in the same category as little clothing, as if they are both signs of a sexualized character. One is a physical trait, one is a choice. Even if the character is fiction there is no need for the creator to exclude body shapes because people might find them attractive. Doing so would definitely undermine one type of female power fantasy (which fantasy games are an outlet for) and at the same time signal that big boobs are an unwanted quality in a powerful woman.

[Lambdafish]

Bosses with big boobs and/or little clothes:
-Sophia
-Garuda(because the Ixal like their women with boobs)
-Cloud Of Darkness
-Calistoferi
-Echidna(a monster but still naked!)
-Shiva
-Dun Scaith Boss
-Siren
-Halicarnassus
-Lady Adamantine
-Scylla(Do they have to be there?)

Bosses with boobs for some reason:
-Arachne Eve
-Belladonna

Here we go.. I have to explain art and character design... I'll do this one at a time:

-Sophia
- Based on the FFVI sprite
- Toned down and made tasteful from the original sprite
- Is literally a goddess, visit a museum and call all the historic artists sexist (damn, censor 'the birth of venus')



-Garuda
- One of the less excusable ones, yet still not the boobified slut that is being suggested
- portrayed as powerful, scheming, and far from womanly
- Designed in 1.0 by a different dev team apparently not
- Based on her design in XI

-Cloud Of Darkness
- See FFIII



-Calistoferi
- See FFV
- Far more tasteful than in FFV, yet faithful to the original design



-Echidna
- Seriously? If you sexualise that thing then you have the problems, not the game
- The top half is meant to resemble a human woman, and human women have breasts.

-Shiva
- Wearing more clothes than any other incarnation of shiva
- Is tasteful

-Dun Scaith Boss (Queen Scathach)
- See all other "nude" male bosses of the void, ferdiad, imps, gargoyles, diabolos. I would be more surprised if the Queen Scathach didn't look the way she did.

-Siren
- See Siren's depiction not only in previous final fantasies but also in mythos.
- Entire point is to draw sailors to their death with beauty.
- Far more tasteful that it even needs to be considering the mythos (shes more giant bird than naked woman in this game)

-Halicarnassus
-Lady Adamantine
- See Queen Scathach

-Scylla(Do they have to be there?)
- Scylla used to be a person, and still half is, so yes they do need to be there (notice she is wearing a very human dress).
- Again, tied to the FFIII design (which makes the point about the dress much more apparent in the DS version)




Arachne eve and Belladonna have boobs because their designs make them part human, much like echidna. Human female torsos have breasts, and the enemies have breasts because they are part human, just like they have arms, and a face. The female part is even in the lore for both of them.

Now do me a favour and let artists make art and expression without calling them perverts, and recognise that human form exists and can be used to create compelling character designs.

[sarehptar]

Yeah coz the only thing that doesn't matter here is the personality of said villains... It' all about dat booty... Coz we know that's the only interesting character trait that a female could have is how she looks and how much cleavage she has.

And beautiful women have no other qualities to them other than being beautiful. Shiva (an example like to be used here) has zero interesting backstory and may aswell be a one dimensional carboard cut-out coz she has the boobs. /sarcasm

Or... you could not take a single blatantly sarcastic comment out of context and pretend that it's an accurate summary of the opinions I've stated across this thread. That'd be cool.

But hey, I'm bored as hell at work so I'll play this game too. Let's actually take a look at Shiva, because you're right. Even if we completely ignore Ysayle herself, Shiva was a (at least more so than many) compelling character whose story was well-developed, well-integrated into the plot, and well-written. Her actions profoundly affect the course of the story and the player is led to sympathize with her in a meaningful way.

But a compelling story is not a trade-off for stereotypical design. I mean, you're literally saying "Well they gave her an interesting back story, so it's fine that her design is fan service." Which, hey, if that's your opinion, own it. I personally think that paying consumers are entitled to their fan service from time to time! But don't try to imply other people are reducing female characters to one-dimensional cardboard cut-outs because we're noting a discrepancy between the purposeful role a character plays narratively and the role they are made to play visually.

So, Shiva. Here's a picture of Shiva from the "interesting back story."

This is an ancient depiction of Shiva.

We know for a fact that with the echo, Ysayle actually saw what the original Shiva looked like. Her band of heretics worship at statues that look like this, I believe also implied to depict Shiva. We know that primals look like what their worshippers expect them to look like.

...This is the primal Shiva:


Now, who expected Shiva to look like that? Ysayle and her heretics... or the game's real-life audience? Leaving aside the whole issue of keeping the FF legacy alive by using designs that harken back to earlier games (because yes, we've acknowledged that point already and yes we know they wanted Shiva to look like every other FF Shiva out there but that doesn't mean the first Shiva didn't have kind of a stereotypical design too), there's no narrative reason for Shiva's depiction to have so drastically changed. (You could make up some convoluted excuse about the poor heretics of Ishgard lacking any titillating material and having to imagine their own, I guess, but I hope you'd at least be cognizant enough to admit the stretch.) Whether Shiva wears some clothes or wears no clothes has zero impact on the events of the plot--the only impact it has is on the enjoyment of viewers who are attracted to that kind of design. Her design is meant to be fan service--both in the sexual appeal and in the long-time FF fan way.

Having a great back story doesn't make a design any less fan service-y. In fact, it just makes blatant fan service even more blatant.

Now whether or not the fan service is a bad thing is an entirely different issue. Like I said earlier, I think some liberally applied fan service helps drive sales and subs and all that nonsense and is therefore well worth it. But when it becomes a trend for developers to pigeonhole characters into certain types of designs based on gender, then it becomes boring and gross. I don't want all our male bosses to look like Sephirot, Titan, and Xande either! That's equally boring and equally illogical.

Asking for more diversity in design doesn't hurt anyone but the people who don't want more diversity...

[Ultimatecalibur]

-Garuda
- One of the less excusable ones, yet still not the boobified slut that is being suggested
- portrayed as powerful, scheming, and far from womanly
- Designed in 1.0 by a different dev team

FFXIV's Garuda is based off of FFXI's female Garuda. Genderswaping Garuda was likely done to slightly balance out how male heavy the other Avatars were.

[Underdog2204]

Or... you could not take a single blatantly sarcastic comment out of context and pretend that it's an accurate summary of the opinions I've stated across this thread. That'd be cool.

Or you could actually understand what sarcasm is - Sarcasm: the use of words that mean the opposite of what you really want to say.

"I feel so blessed by this generosity. So moved! Now we really know they care about depicting female villains in unique and diverse ways!", implies there are no unique female characters (specifically villains) in the game which is an out and out lie.

You are right fanservice is not a bad thing but you are no authority on what is too much or too little if the consumer wants it. No-one is pigeonholeing these characters other than people like you who ironically say they do not want them to be pigeonholed.... The mental gymnastics astounds me...

[Lambdafish]

FFXIV's Garuda is based off of FFXI's female Garuda. Genderswaping Garuda was likely done to slightly balance out how male heavy the other Avatars were.

I was going to put this, but looking at the XI model, the two don't look all that similar other than color.

[sarehptar]

Or you could actually understand what sarcasm is - Sarcasm: the use of words that mean the opposite of what you really want to say.

"I feel so blessed by this generosity. So moved! Now we really know they care about depicting female villains in unique and diverse ways!", implies there are no unique female characters (specifically villains) in the game which is an out and out lie.

You are right fanservice is not a bad thing but you are no authority on what is too much or too little if the consumer wants it. No-one is pigeonholeing these characters other than people like you who ironically say they do not want them to be pigeonholed.... The mental gymnastics astounds me... How things look are not their definining traits.

Bro, I can't even.

1) That's irony you're thinking of. Sarcasm can be but is not exclusively limited to the use of irony. We have different words for different reasons! #Diversity

2) By that logic, who invested you with the authority to decide who is and isn't pigeonholing here? :T These mental gymnastics, man!

And edit because lord, your post made me lol so hard I actually missed the most lulzy part of it: "you are no authority on what is too much or too little if the consumer wants it." Sorry, wasn't aware that "the consumer" was a mystical title that people like me--good hard-working subscription-paying customers--aren't entitled to.

[Underdog2204]

Bro, I can't even.

1) That's irony you're thinking of. Sarcasm can be but is not exclusively limited to the use of irony. We have different words for different reasons! #Diversity

2) By that logic, who invested you with the authority to decide who is and isn't pigeonholing here? :T These mental gymnastics, man!

I just stated the Webster dictionary definition of sarcasm... There was nothing ironic in what you stated there was zero contradicting meanings towards your stance on this subject and what you said in that statement. Please point out the "irony" in what you said... If it's there it should be easily done. It would've been ironic if your stance was the opposite of what it is, but it's not.

2) You are pigeonholing you said so yourself - "But when it becomes a trend for developers to pigeonhole characters into certain types of designs based on gender, then it becomes boring and gross." I don't class Sophia and Shiva in the same catagory based soley on how they appear (basically that look like beautiful women). I think they both have unique design concepts... Sophia has a huge discombobulated head for christ sake...

So the irony is that you actually assume the devs are pigeonholing because that's what you think... Yet you just called me out for assuming you pigeonhole them (based off what you have said)? Tell me who is being the arbiter of who piegonholes what here? Yeah for sure those gymnastics....

Yes you are right, but you are a minority of the playerbase... As I keep saying and will repeat over and over again the majority of people just do not care. So you do not get to dictacte how the game goes or what the dev's should include, neither does the majority. They do their thing and you either like it or leave it, it seems like what they are doing is doing them good, soooo why does this need changing again? Oh that's right coz you want it