Should Cleric Stance be disabled in party instances?

[VanilleFang]

CS promotes sloppy play.

How? It's not CS that is sloppy, it's the player. If the player practiced enough they wouldn't be sloppy.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

How? It's not CS that is sloppy, it's the player. If the player practiced enough they wouldn't be sloppy.

CS seems to help promote the concept that healers can ignore the rest of the party for the sake of their own numbers. I can count the number of competent uses of it(not including the people in my own fc) on one hand, and pretty ugh every use of it I've seen has led to panic attacks as I desperately try to keep myself alive with my own self heals while the healer ignores their job as healer and let's me die. And to answer your earlier question, I'd prefer a healer that just heals, as that not only allows me to comfortably sit in dps stance, but also pretty much guarantees a smooth, stress free run.

I'm quite sure I'm not the only one that'll happily votekick a healer for focusing so much on dps that they let an easily prevented wipe happen, either.

[VanilleFang]

snipperoo.

I would kick a healer who ignores their primary role as well.

If you don't think it's possible for a tank to stay in their DPS Stance just because the healer decided to use CS then... I don't know who you've been playing with.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

I would kick a healer who ignores their primary role as well.

If you don't think it's possible for a tank to stay in their DPS Stance just because the healer decided to use CS then... I don't know who you've been playing with.

I'm more than happy to sit in dps stance regardless, though some of the healers I've ran into certainly seem to support that train of thought. I actually had a scholar in full raid gear cuss me out in A9N last week because I was main tanking in SwO. Naturally, I pointed out their apparent competency as a healer thanks to their gear, whilst rotating cd's, and they responded by dissipating their fairy and leaving it unsummoned for the rest of the fight, while the AST worked alone to keep everyone up. It was remarkably hilarious, especially when I questioned why they wanted ShO.

I am not going to risk going into CS and compromising healing with a group of people who can't DPS out of a wet paper bag.

That's odd, I would say CS is even more mandatory at that point, personally, since that's one of the situations where I feel obligated to turn it on despite hating the play style.

I have to agree with some of what your saying because my healing has been put under pressure by a healing partner that stayed in cleric to sow how skilled she was at dps/ healing, becuase it is more 'valued' I was kicked for healing.

Youch... that sucks. I would've berated the other healer for not helping out if I'd seen that you were struggling. :c Sucks.

You and Thunda_Cat seem to have to same problem. It's like all or nothing with you guys.

It really is all or nothing. Cleric stance doesn't teach a healer how to play, they get pretty much no feedback on whether it's safe to use or not, whereas tanks that hop into dps stance at the wrong time are left sitting ducks, at the expense of precious resources, ((PLD/DRK)) or 10 seconds of extra vulnerability that an uninitiated tank won't have the foresight to properly mitigate. Healers get 5 secs of weaker heals, but those 5 seconds are so easily covered by other sources that it feels like a slap on the wrist more than anything.

[AmeliaVerves]

It really is all or nothing. Cleric stance doesn't teach a healer how to play, they get pretty much no feedback on whether it's safe to use or not [...]

Ehm... what?!
Please enlighten me if I am wrong, but does that mean the knowledge when to DPS and when not was brought to me one night by... I don't know... Toothfairy? o.O Because I am quite sure I learned it by wiping and then realising "Oopsie daisy... I should have not made damage there, but should have healed more. ^^' "

A little question: My best friend is mostly able to solo heal A9s and A10s with her WHM, so me as off heal is meant to... stand around? Watching Netflix, waiting for the 2 moments in the fight where she needs a little assistance and being carried just because CS is bad and made by the devil and you shall not uuuuuuseeeeeee!!! (A little exaggeration here...)

Have you ever thought about CS could be more save when the entering CD was removed instead of removing a skill every healer needs to do the MSQ in an appropriate time instead of it taking 10 minutes to kill 2 enemies?
Sorry, but me as a healer could just turn it around and say: "Damage stances should be removed, because tanks are meant to mitigate damage! They keep me from using my whole toolkit! So I want it to be removed!"
(Btw, were you aware of the fact that overhealing pushes a healers hate more than anything else? So going in CS and dps actually does assist you in damage stance. :P)
I hope you see the point, but I fear you do not, because you seem very close-minded and as if you don't want to think about different opinions or accept others see things differently.

I don't really mind if CS would be deactivated in general dungeons, but you should be aware of the fact that a loooot of healers will start joining in as tanks or dps ever since healing will become frustratingly boring. (Leading to extra bonus for healers in roulette dungeons, because they're wanted class then? xD) Me personally, I would still join as SCH, go on auto follow and let Eos take care of you, ever since I wouldn't have anything to do there.
But if you want to touch CS in raids? No way, never want this to happen!!! I love my SCH and I love being able to contribute a fair amount of dps to burst the boss even faster.

[Lambdafish]

But if you want to touch CS in raids? No way, never want this to happen!!! I love my SCH and I love being able to contribute a fair amount of dps to burst the boss even faster.

People will counter with "Healer DPS isn't counted when designing boss fights", and I want to respond to that before they even get the chance. The reason that DPS isn't counted when designing boss fights is that they are designed to account for MINIMUM DAMAGE OUTPUT. That is not to say that healer DPS isn't a normal part healing, it is that the content is designed so that players don't have to min/max to clear. What healer DPS does is it allows damage to be spread further across teammates meaning that if a DPS fumbles (read: "fumbles", not "is terrible", we all have those moments) then the extra damage from a healer helps the party get one step closer to clearing. And as you said, there is plenty of time for it.

Then there is healer accuracy. The reason for this is in response to gordias, where the community made Healer DPS a requirement in order to even be able to clear the content, and the devs responded by making an extreme statement about it not being a requirement in order to beat the content (to not develop a generation of terrible healers who don't heal). I am firmly of the belief that this was a temporary measure to allow the community to recover from Gordias, and in SB they are evaluating accuracy in general. What I'm trying to get at is that healer DPS is not a requirement IF you are planning on playing on the lower end of the damage output (remember that the fights are tuned to minimum expected damage output), but what that does is it puts unnecessary pressure on gearing the DPS in order to clear the content for the sake of your own laziness.

Also, I gave up ever responding to Thunda_cat, it's like talking to a brick wall.

[AmeliaVerves]

snip

I am totally with you! Let me make one thing clear: I never had to DPS in order to kill A9s or A10s, because our DDs were totally fine taking care of this on their own in our first kill. Me and my best friend were still a little insecure and because of safety both of ous stayed out of CS the whole fight. Not a single Dot were made by us healers and we cleared absolutely fine. But when we got better, both of us decided to give it a try with (almost) solo healing it, except for some critical moments when I have to leave CS and help, but that barely happend after gaining more experience with each fight.

Btw, while I am going to cap my Acc to 600 (including buff-food) soon with my relic, my friend is not going to meld one single Acc materia, therefore she doesn't even need to bother entering CS in A12s, because eventually she wont be able to place a hit anyway. xD But! And there we go with personal playstyle and preferances: She loves healing more than anything and is really pationate and skilled in raw healing, but also likes having a few seconds to plan the next steps during the fights.
I am the complete oposite. I don't plan, but I react. Of course I know when to place an Adlo and when to spread it or use Eos, but I love being in a hurry. Jumping in and out of CS, while running around following mechanics and telling Eos what to do. The more stressful the situation the more focused I am and the better my gameplay gets.

And I do know for 100% there are many others out there just like me. Taking CS away from us would destroy the positive experience of a complete role for many people and might even lead them to leaving the game and finding another one where healers are able to dps properly, instead of throwing a 900 crit Broil where it could be a 4000 crit Broil...

[Cynfael]

People will counter with "Healer DPS isn't counted when designing boss fights", and I want to respond to that before they even get the chance. The reason that DPS isn't counted when designing boss fights is that they are designed to account for MINIMUM DAMAGE OUTPUT. That is not to say that healer DPS isn't a normal part healing, it is that the content is designed so that players don't have to min/max to clear...

Unfortunately people have and will continue to set up the dev article about minimum DPS calculations for end-game raids as a strawman to attack Cleric Stance and healer DPS expectations in general. They read only what they want to read and completely ignore or skew the context to support their position, which is usually "I hate to DPS as healer and wish I had excuses not to do it" or "I am a special snowflake who chooses not to DPS as healer and am looking to explain why my playstyle is not actually selfish or lazy." We've been through this dance at least once or twice already in this same thread.

[MaikoRaines]

That's odd, I would say CS is even more mandatory at that point, personally, since that's one of the situations where I feel obligated to turn it on despite hating the play style.

That way of thinking will always put the party at risk of a guaranteed wipe.

This also depends on the fight. If you have people who are new and unfamiliar to the fight who isn't up to snuff, longevity VS DPS any day of the week in the event of newbies. They need to learn the fight and their follies, and you need to ensure they stay up long enough to figure out they need to get better. Much like how I run Void Ark and can easily solo heal it while throwing down ample DPS. I've covered it more than enough where I know that Medica 2, Regen and Asylum are the top three spells I ever really cast while throwing down the hurt. Especially in that third fight where it's a ton of AOE damage.

I run with the same core group of people on a regular basis. When I run with a random pick up group, notice they're owning it, and see me jumping into the fray, I nail everyone's commendations for being versatile. I don't HAVE to DPS, but for those next few minutes, I'm part of a team. I do my part.

You might hate the playstyle and that's fine. You can figure it out for yourself. But when it risks wiping the fight because you don't feel it's dying fast enough... you might want to reconsider your role a bit more carefully.

To add to this, if you actually feel strongly that CS is only meant for one purpose such as picking up weaker DPS, then I think you may need to re-evaluate your skillset as a healing class.

Anyways, I'm done trying to convince you. You're set on your ways. This works for me 100% of the time. Squeenix will never change the mechanics of healers as they are working as intended - and you're arguing a losing battle here.

Besides, my commendations earned speak more than any words have.

Good luck.

[Feyona]

CS seems to help promote the concept that healers can ignore the rest of the party for the sake of their own numbers. I can count the number of competent uses of it(not including the people in my own fc) on one hand, and pretty ugh every use of it I've seen has led to panic attacks as I desperately try to keep myself alive with my own self heals while the healer ignores their job

I'm quite sure I'm not the only one that'll happily votekick a healer for focusing so much on dps that they let an easily prevented wipe happen, either.

I have to agree with some of what your saying because my healing has been put under pressure by a healing partner that stayed in cleric to sow how skilled she was at dps/ healing, becuase it is more 'valued' I was kicked for healing.