Have we moved to an age where taking hate as a dps = bad dps instead of bad tank?

[Mirch]

hold hate = tank problem
kill target = dps problem
sleep durin midfight = healer problem

[Warkupo]

A tank not keeping hate is bad; usually its' because the tank either doesn't know what he's doing or is trying to push his DPS and doesn't know what he's doing.

A DPS who pulls hate either isn't paying attention to the enmity bar, or decided that the middle of the fight is a good place to make a statement about the tank by martyring himself and other members of the party. A DPS might feel like they're being held back by a bad tank, but if they decide to pull hate that's all on them.

Enmity is everyones' problem.

[SeriousxSarcasm]

I do think some responsibility falls to the DPS (if I know I'm gonna throw a big burst out there, I'll use quelling strikes, and/or wait a few secs for the tank to build enmity), but I'm gonna give you an example of how ridiculous some tank expectations can get:

I got yelled at for pulling hate off 3 WARs during a hunt... I was a lvl 54 SMN at the time (they were 60). -_- I was so damn apologetic, trying to pull hits, trying to figure out wtf I was doing wrong. Then my FC's raid leader got there and just about lost his shit at them (he was the one who pointed out the lvl/gear difference, I never thought to check, I just assumed I out-geared them). Sorry, but if tanks of any sort are gonna sit in DPS-stance they might as well give up tanking all together. instead of blaming their poor enmity-management skills on others.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Nah. Good tanks can hold aggro just fine in dps stance, so enmity isn't a reason to stay in tank stance outside of the opener.

[SeriousxSarcasm]

Nah. Good tanks can hold aggro just fine in dps stance, so enmity isn't a reason to stay in tank stance outside of the opener.

I would argue that great tanks can hold aggro in DPS stance on single targets (I have yet to meet a single one, but I am aware they exist somewhere out in the wild). A good tank accepts when they cannot do this (or when there is simply too many targets to generate hate on when you've got an AOE dps with you), and concede to use their tank stance if they are going to lose aggro without it.

[SeriousxSarcasm]

Of course, I can be a little troll about it. If a tank keeps losing enmity to me and/or healer in a dungeon, I can just summon titan-egi and smirk to myself when tank has to put on tank-stance to fight titan for aggro. I've had a few healers just switch to propping up titan. XD

[Llus]

Here's a tank's stance on this.
Enmity is everybody's job <snip>

-WAR: 20% less DPS<snip>

Its the Tank's job to stay over DPS, but DPS have no excuse to not make it easier.

War: 25% less, deliverance gives a +5% to base

If you pull hate from a boss in the middle of a cleave, now heals have to catch up. This boils down to greedy players. Greedy tanks don't keep enmity, don't pull right or just don't give a F. Greedy healers staying in clerics too long waste MP and DPS by raising a dead tank or DPS when they hung them out to dry. Greedy DPS burst w/o using their enmity reducing skills, cleave the party, force the tank back into enmity generating mode and healers into fixing your mistake. This blame one group one week, another next and another next is an endless cycle. Your skills are there for a reason - Use them.

Ohh, and on a sidenote, Fellow WAR mains: Infuriate + Unchained your boss pulls please

[Mirch]

I would argue that great tanks can hold aggro in DPS stance on single targets (I have yet to meet a single one, but I am aware they exist somewhere out in the wild). A good tank accepts when they cannot do this (or when there is simply too many targets to generate hate on when you've got an AOE dps with you), and concede to use their tank stance if they are going to lose aggro without it.

Tanks can hold aggro on single and multitargets even without tank stance.
Dark Knights! I summon you!!

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

I would argue that great tanks can hold aggro in DPS stance on single targets (I have yet to meet a single one, but I am aware they exist somewhere out in the wild). A good tank accepts when they cannot do this (or when there is simply too many targets to generate hate on when you've got an AOE dps with you), and concede to use their tank stance if they are going to lose aggro without it.

DRK can fairly easily hold hate in AoE situations, technically, due to the way Abyssal Drain works, especially if they have BP up. Warrior's can too actually with OP spam, it's a common speed pull tactic for a Warrior to Bloodbath, Berserk, IR, and Vengeance in Deliverance for some tight AoE damage and threat gen thanks to vengeance ticks.

[vp_cmc]

Your skills are there for a reason - Use them.

Quelling is a cross skill for all jobs but bard, so sometimes it is not there. Some mch prefer feint for their 5-th slot, so they could not have Quelling at all (at the same time they have one of highest burst openers in the game).