i am not mass pull tank

[alimdia]

Melee dps can't sustain AoE dps long, but they can absolutely wreck face in seconds with small pulls. Had a tank do a large pull with 2 monks, took 4 minutes. Did small pulls next, and each of the packs died in about 15-20 seconds. With running between pulls, all 4 packs took about 2 minutes to kill, when pulling all 4 together would've cost an easy 6. Melee just doesn't have the tools to sustain real AlE.

You're talking about bad players, I'm not. Only people who don't know how to play melee say Melees can't sustain AoE.

According to your anecdote your two monks went through 8 elixir fields (4 mins) before the pull was done, sorry to say this but monks didn't aoe, and neither did the healer it seems, and probably not even the tank outside basic enmity.

Like I said before this is math, there's no argument to be made, you will do more dmg with aoes than with single target skills once you go past certain amount of enemies, this is not up to discussion, if monsters aren't dead after 30-40s one of the dps isn't aoeing, I've never had to use elixir field more than twice in a big pull even in DF, and that's 30s.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Eh, I don't see how a mnk can't be bad at AoE when RB is their only respectable AoE on the gcd, but w/e. :3 I just take my brd or mch if I want speed runs.

"Arm of the Destroyer" > "Twin Snakes"/"True Strike" > "Rockbreaker"; .

I'm well aware that AoD is an AoE that sees more benefits past 5 mobs, but the chip damage is so minimal at only 50 potency, maybe 200/400 a mob at my ilvl that I'd rather just use more rock breakers, since it's annoying to waste so much tp on what basically qualifies as a gentle lovetap. Course, my mnks I210 anyway, since it's only something I use for expert roulette.

[Kosme]

You're talking about bad players, I'm not. Only people who don't know how to play melee say Melees can't sustain AoE.

Yup. I just wonder how often this point needs repeating in this thread before people read it.

Eh, I don't see how a mnk can't be bad at AoE when RB is their only respectable AoE on the gcd, but w/e. :3 I just take my brd or mch if I want speed runs.

That brings me to one of the benefits of running a parser. I don't care who does or who doesn't, but it takes much of the guesswork and/or hard work out of knowing whether or not you're good at your job.

Apparently there are quite a few people in this thread alone who don't know the potential of the jobs they play, and are unaware that they're experiencing a skill/knowledge issue as opposed to a game/job balance issue.

[Legion88]

MNK can easyly sustain AoE damage with an easy rotation of "Arm of the Destroyer" > "Twin Snakes"/"True Strike" > "Rockbreaker"; with "Invigorate" and "Purification" they can refill their TP and they don't run dry easy. Also "Elixier Field" and "Howling Fist" are good AoE DPS. And if the MNK is not braindead he can sustain 3k+ DPS on a fullpull in Xelphatol, it is less then a SMN and not as sustainable like a BLM but can challenge a BRD easyly in DPS only lacks in sustain, but if you need more TP then "Purification" and "Invigorate" gives you, you should question the overall party DPS.

[alimdia]

Low gcd so you don't wait long before using rockbreaker again, traited internal release means very high chance your aoes will crit, low cooldown on elixir field and 60s on howling fist, arm of the destroyer is a dps gain past 5 enemies, purification offers extra tp for more aoes, though stuff should be dead before you have to use it unless the other dps isn't using aoes.

[Kaurie]

Eh, I don't see how a mnk can't be bad at AoE when RB is their only respectable AoE on the gcd, but w/e. :3 I just take my brd or mch if I want speed runs.

Monks have the 2nd best AoE in the game, closely followed by BLM

[AngeloFlick]

I'd rather have a good monk that knows how to do AoE properly than a subpar bard.

[Jim_Berry]

Yup. I just wonder how often this point needs repeating in this thread before people read it.


That brings me to one of the benefits of running a parser. I don't care who does or who doesn't, but it takes much of the guesswork and/or hard work out of knowing whether or not you're good at your job.

Apparently there are quite a few people in this thread alone who don't know the potential of the jobs they play, and are unaware that they're experiencing a skill/knowledge issue as opposed to a game/job balance issue.

A parser wouldn't be necessary if people didn't ALWAYS expect fast runs. Why are you parsing me in a dungeon anyway? It has gotten so bad that a group kicked a DRK because he wasn't "dps'ing" enough........in a dungeon!

If you want stuff to die fast, create it in PF because you have DF players who care less about how you look at their performance.

If the TC can't mass pull, why force it if he took time to let us know that he can't. If he tries and mess up to meet demands, he will lose morale. When I play healer, I welcome the kick because I can't dps as WHM, and am NOT going out my way simply because you guys want fast runs. Again, create a PF for that.

[Kosme]

A parser wouldn't be necessary if people didn't ALWAYS expect fast runs. Why are you parsing me in a dungeon anyway? It has gotten so bad that a group kicked a DRK because he wasn't "dps'ing" enough........in a dungeon!

If you want stuff to die fast, create it in PF because you have DF players who care less about how you look at their performance.

If the TC can't mass pull, why force it if he took time to let us know that he can't. If he tries and mess up to meet demands, he will lose morale. When I play healer, I welcome the kick because I can't dps as WHM, and am NOT going out my way simply because you guys want fast runs. Again, create a PF for that.

The context of the conversation isn't whether or not parsers are necessary, nor have I suggested any necessity to use parsers to be good. My bringing it up was simply a suggestion that it's one of many viable (and powerful) ways to improve your game, if that's what you're interested in. People have made certain statements about the abilities of melee jobs in dungeon combat, and the point I'm trying to drive home is that if these people knew the ins and outs of said jobs, they'd quickly realize their statements are false.

As for wanting stuff to "die fast" in DF, every party doesn't have to be some shining pillar of efficiency, and I in no way condone forcing people to play in a certain style. However the "speed runs" of yesterday have become the normal runs of today, and you can't fault people for expecting the norm when they queue for content.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Melee dps can't sustain AoE dps long, but they can absolutely wreck face in seconds with small pulls. Had a tank do a large pull with 2 monks, took 4 minutes. Did small pulls next, and each of the packs died in about 15-20 seconds. With running between pulls, all 4 packs took about 2 minutes to kill, when pulling all 4 together would've cost an easy 6. Melee just doesn't have the tools to sustain real AlE.

Those were just bad monks. In every dungeon, I will open large pulls with Heavy Thrust -> Ring of Thorn -> Doom Spike until TP is 300-ish and assess whether the mobs will live long enough to warrant Invigorate. If they will, I'll pop that and Doom Spike until I need to refresh Heavy Thrust. Very rarely do pull last long enough I'll TP plummet, and if I notice DPS is a little slow, I'll switch to my single target rotation at that same 200-300 mark so I'll avoid an empty TP pool. Monks have two means of refreshing their TP. They were probably spamming Arm of the Destroyer is a smaller pack or dotting targets. The former is a flat DPS loss if there are less than five mobs and the latter is just a loss in general unless you do it while the tank is dragging everything. Even then, Monk only has Fracture for dots outside Demolish and that's an awful ability.