Making Jobs Rotationally Easier in 4.0

[Sarcatica]

not at all, we are not doing more that our job, our Core skills do damage even if you dont want you do dps using the basic skills and we are not talking about that bcs thats work here and is fine, tanks are doing dps from lvl 1 thats not the matter here, something many of you dont get un you head is the simple question about why is mandatory saccrifice our defense for more damage?, why they dont just simple remove damage penalty of tank stances? Why the player base get so mad about to ask for better tanks Mode whe all here hate so much use shield/grit/defiance? If the Game was desing to be all dps with subjobs then wth shield oath exist? To become a simple pull skill?
If we are the modern tanks that many say our tank stances are the worse skill never made and its not fair one tank have all and the other 2 just get extra useless mitigation to be diferent

No one is forcing tanks to not be in tank stance, you can still clear any content as long as you are 100% good on your rotation, exception on Gordias A4S ofc because dps check was tighter on the few legs. It's the part of the game where there are surplus of damage output, mitigations, healings at a much higher ilvl which people complain to be a problem when they aren't. Look at T13 in full i130s, there were already quite a good amount of people just having tank stance up for the damage spike. T9 was quite a good joke too in full i110s for tanks, just put tank stance on for Bahamut's Favor and Ravensbeak and you done. It has been the same thing, the DPS meta just wasn't fully developed yet in 2.x hence why you didn't feel it was a problem until 3.0. With more raiders developing the most optimal meta in 3.0, suddenly it becomes a huge problem. Why is that so? auto attacks haven't been a problem so far even in 2.x contents, no sugarcoating either on how flimsy those auto attacks hit you as well. Generally most raiders in 2.x weren't as skilled and informed too. IMO FFlogs played a good part in making people realize their full potential as players and it is also another reason why few veteran raiders are still in the game, to challenge the tier in the shortest amount of time or just to pad if they so want it. This has no direct implication to other people who just want to clear or play for fun.

ShO/Grit/Defiance are all still integral in early progression. Maybe blame on SE for designing easier tier then? Tools are made to be used but as you get better and get more gear, you just realize that those aren't needed as much anymore, that's also part of your own progression in the game.

[shao32]

snip

true nobody is focing me to no stay in tank stance, but are so many how look bad at you if you dont do it, you and me are tired to see this kind of treats off ppl how want to be tanky and they cant bcs others kick then or call it bad, so many agresive coments about never use grit more that necesary,happen in the other side, we see it and i dont deny it but was a lot less severe and less comon, was a lot of paladins how suffer the dps meta, a lot of DKR call bad for stay in grit and dont use blood weapon, and a lot of bad WARs die for the glory of fell cleave.

full potential? no, that cant have that name, its just the most unfair trade off tanks we have with one logic option, be tanky for emity? dont need it, the dps gain solve that, extra mitigation?, same you dont need it, acc? same, a mere tool for a especific moment, you cant help you party to play more confortable anymore, healers heal to much, they never run of MP like before.

tanky mode was a quality life for healers and dps mode, you dealt you normal dps, you "dps" mode dont give you a huve dps gain to neeed to be to risky in any moment, t9 at certain ilvl yeah can be easy but was a more easy for healers stay on ou tank mode due the amount of damage the party recive, the damage spike was more random that now and t13 was the same, you support you party in other ways and feels so good make they job more easy.

you know why alexander was bad from the first tier to the last? why the lower clear rates why top players take it down in less that 2 weeks in every tier? i tell you, alexander is just a big dummy with tons of aoes to piss off you rotation, ppl dont get excited like before to down a turn, the emotion in the end the tension of the last 5% of hp, alexander is a raid with the most predictable mechanics when only ppl want to know in the end "how was my dps bro?"

and the fault of this problem come from al the quality life tools healers and some tanks recive making our primary responsibilitys extremly easy, there almost nothing that just a rampath without shield and a good adloquium cant solve now.

[aleph_null]

When it comes to insults, kicking etc that's nothing different from ppl who kick/insult others who don't do good dps. It doesn't mean people should stop promoting good rotations to improve your dps.

Personally I won't kick 24/7 tank stance tanks or healers who won't use cleric if I see them in DF. I think they're objectively inferior to tanks who can stance dance while surviving, or healers who can contribute dps while keeping the party alive, but that doesn't make it justifiable for me to kick others for having different playing styles compared to what I prefer.

[Brian_]

looks so funny you say that, when alexander was a huge step back compared to coil in fight desing and party mechanic all locked with just dps checks and party dances like they say for me thats akward.

I think the consensus amongst actual raiders is that Alexander has generally been a huge step forward in terms of actual raid design and polish but a massive step backwards in terms of its reward structure, aesthetics, story / lore, music, and general emotional relevancy. Fights like A3S, A6S, A8S have quite easily been some of SE's best fights and introduced a lot of new and different mechanics. Unfortunately, we've progressed as players enough that we might not realize it, but if you sent the current raiding population back in time to do Coil again, it'd be a complete and total joke in terms of mechanics and difficulty and feel incredibly basic.

And I don't know why you assume PLD is the turtle tank when they were the highest DPS tank and still had the capacity to push good DPS while solo-tanking. Again, you only quantify them as such because we were worse players back then.

Ok, then, let's take numbers...I'll use your previous max numbers, so 1100 for turtles, 1700 for DPS-tank and 2300 for each DPS. Turtle+DPS-tank+4DPS = 12000 DPS.

Now, let's suppose you bring one uber-turtle who can only deal 500 DPS as a trade off, and 5 DPS. You'll have 500+5*2300 =..... 12000 DPS.

So, which one is better ?

Assuming your "uber tank" has enough combined raid mitigation to make up for the loss of stacking DV / Path / Reprisal, easily the 5 DPS.

But again, that's missing the point. What matters is my main point which you always seem to forget.

Balance.

Like I said, you cannot make an intellectually honest argument. Your argument is based around ignoring everything we know about the game and comically rudimentary math. We know SE already has difficulties balancing the existing jobs, skills, and comps. We know the player-base will try to push for optimization even if it's only marginally better. You are opening the pandora's box of imbalance.

How do you think SE is going to deal with balancing stacked physical DPS comps like DRG / MNK / NIN / MCH / BRD? Or DRG vs. NIN vs. MNK when DRG's piercing debuff is much more likely to actually buff the DPS of both a MCH and BRD? Or Foes vs. Hypercharge when you suddenly have 5 physical DPS or 2 casters? Or the ability to have your ranged support both buff party damage AND restore MP on the fly? You're throwing SE into an uncharted wilderness of balance issues and expecting they'll find their way out with their broken compass.

And before you try and type out your usual misinformed and completely ignorant explanation for how SE can deal with all that, consider that all of that redesigning and rebalancing is taking away from the limited man power SE has to develop more content for a player-base with an overwhelming majority that doesn't care about your vision of what a tank should be.

They already said that one person screwing won't doomed the whole party anymore, so you probably won't see lots of mechanics you had in Gordias and Midas Savage. As for G.A, it you could hide behind something to greatly reduce damage or just split, it wouldn't be a "less creative" mechanic.

Spoken like someone who doesn't raid. 1 person making 1 mistake will still straight-up wipe you even in the Creator. It'll likely continue to be that way if this is SE's idea of what an easy raid is.

But again, you miss the point. I wasn't talking about punishing mechanics. I was talking about mechanics that are composition based and dependent on you having 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 4 DPS. What happens to all the current mechanics that mandates you have 2 tanks or has debuff prioritization based on assuming you have a 2/2/4 comp? Stuff like Digititus, Liquid Gaol, Quarantine, Jails, Gavel, GA, Time-gates, Void of Repentance, etc.

Yea, they could rebalance all those mechanics so that they can also work with 2/1/5, 1/2/5, 1/1/6 comps in early prog but that only leads to the homogenization and simplification of mechanics. Mechanics that were tuned to only be for tanks / healers now have to dumbed down so that DPS can also handle it. Damage intake from adds / tank swaps has to be scaled down or redesigned so that it can be solo-tanked through the typical massive vulnerability or damage boosts SE uses to force add splits or tank swaps. Again, you are just limiting SE's options in terms of mechanical design to fulfill your delusion about what tanks should be.

[Alistaire]

One way to make things simpler would be to remove all positionals. PotD has proven no one job became OP because those positionals were guaranteed.

[Brian_]

you know why alexander was bad from the first tier to the last? why the lower clear rates why top players take it down in less that 2 weeks in every tier? i tell you, alexander is just a big dummy with tons of aoes to piss off you rotation, ppl dont get excited like before to down a turn, the emotion in the end the tension of the last 5% of hp, alexander is a raid with the most predictable mechanics when only ppl want to know in the end "how was my dps bro?"

and the fault of this problem come from al the quality life tools healers and some tanks recive making our primary responsibilitys extremly easy, there almost nothing that just a rampath without shield and a good adloquium cant solve now.

Yes, all these videos of people cheering after their clears... they're all just paid actors. I was just hallucinating when my own static burst out in cheers after our A3S clear and after clearing A8S... and after clearing A12S.

By your logic, coil was also a "big dummy with tons of aoes to piss off you rotation." Predictable mechanics? You seriously thought coil mechanics weren't predictable? And DPS? Just because you didn't care about your DPS back then doesn't mean ACT wasn't a thing and that the best statics / FCs / servers didn't track and post their DPS even before fflogs.

You are also incredibly naive if you think that if Coil was re-released today that it wouldn't end up the same as Alexander. We improved as players. We learned how to optimize our play. We refined the meta.

The most basic and relevant reason for why Alexander had lower clear rates was because it was harder, not because of tank and healer design. I saw a lot of my friends who raided since BCoB and cleared FCoB get gated by Faust and quit entirely when their groups shattered on impact with A3S.

Content with the difficulty of A1S-A8S forced a lot of groups and players to make hard decisions that fractured the raiding population. The content was so hard that you really couldn't clear it without 8 good players with the same motivation. And, it turns out that's a very rare thing to find. Raid with friends? Not unless they're skilled and similarly motivated. Raid with FC/LS? Same. That's why everyone transferred to Gilgamesh (NA), Ragnarok (EU), and Chocobo (JP). SE gave us a HC raid when their players were mostly casual and MC players. That's why the clear-rates were low.

[Reynhart]

Assuming your "uber tank" has enough combined raid mitigation to make up for the loss of stacking DV / Path / Reprisal, easily the 5 DPS.

Normally, he would have enough to stack two of them, since you can't have those three at the same time.

Balance.

No, I'm not missing the part about Balance. You're just using that word without explaining what it is and why it should break upon that. Please tell me what "balance" is, for you ?

I was just hallucinating when my own static burst out in cheers after our A3S clear and after clearing A8S... and after clearing A12S.

Well, for Elysium, it wasn't as much "Cheers !" as "At last, we're done with it, never again"

Content with the difficulty of A1S-A8S forced a lot of groups and players to make hard decisions that fractured the raiding population. The content was so hard that you really couldn't clear it without 8 good players with the same motivation.

It wasn't a "difficulty" issue but a "design" issue...and an incentive issue. But, hey, you think Alex is a step forward, so I guess it's okay...

[Sarcatica]

It wasn't a "difficulty" issue but a "design" issue...and an incentive issue. But, hey, you think Alex is a step forward, so I guess it's okay...

When people talk about interesting mechanic designs, a good amount of players always say Coil was much better. I beg to differ, Coil wasn't matched with a 'normal' mode like 3.0. Savage mode for Alex is a rehash of their normal mode, obviously a harder version. Because the mechanics somewhat overlap, people don't get that feeling those mechanics are new even though a good amount of them actually interact differently. Coil offered both story and the best equip in their time, Alex completely separate them. What if Alex had the same format as Coil?

I'd say Coil nael-ed (heh) down the story solidly, while the mechanics weren't as developed as Alex. It's the complete opposite for Alex when comparing it as a whole to Coil. It's not fair to compare Normal and Savage Alex, which are similar (most people tend to compare the wrong things too) whereas Coil is a full package itself. Comparison is only fair when you see the full package for both and I feel most people miss the point.

Alexander so far doesn't give any more incentive other than gear, so that's another part IMO that people just can't seem to find that motivation to clear Savage. Coil sort of forced us to progress to view the full story.

[Sarcatica]

No, I'm not missing the part about Balance. You're just using that word without explaining what it is and why it should break upon that. Please tell me what "balance" is, for you ?

Brian_ mentioned that. Either you were too blind or just simply didn't want to acknowledge it.

Balance.

Like I said, you cannot make an intellectually honest argument. Your argument is based around ignoring everything we know about the game and comically rudimentary math. We know SE already has difficulties balancing the existing jobs, skills, and comps. We know the player-base will try to push for optimization even if it's only marginally better. You are opening the pandora's box of imbalance.

How do you think SE is going to deal with balancing stacked physical DPS comps like DRG / MNK / NIN / MCH / BRD? Or DRG vs. NIN vs. MNK when DRG's piercing debuff is much more likely to actually buff the DPS of both a MCH and BRD? Or Foes vs. Hypercharge when you suddenly have 5 physical DPS or 2 casters? Or the ability to have your ranged support both buff party damage AND restore MP on the fly? You're throwing SE into an uncharted wilderness of balance issues and expecting they'll find their way out with their broken compass.

And before you try and type out your usual misinformed and completely ignorant explanation for how SE can deal with all that, consider that all of that redesigning and rebalancing is taking away from the limited man power SE has to develop more content for a player-base with an overwhelming majority that doesn't care about your vision of what a tank should be.



Spoken like someone who doesn't raid. 1 person making 1 mistake will still straight-up wipe you even in the Creator. It'll likely continue to be that way if this is SE's idea of what an easy raid is.

But again, you miss the point. I wasn't talking about punishing mechanics. I was talking about mechanics that are composition based and dependent on you having 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 4 DPS. What happens to all the current mechanics that mandates you have 2 tanks or has debuff prioritization based on assuming you have a 2/2/4 comp? Stuff like Digititus, Liquid Gaol, Quarantine, Jails, Gavel, GA, Time-gates, Void of Repentance, etc.

Yea, they could rebalance all those mechanics so that they can also work with 2/1/5, 1/2/5, 1/1/6 comps in early prog but that only leads to the homogenization and simplification of mechanics. Mechanics that were tuned to only be for tanks / healers now have to dumbed down so that DPS can also handle it. Damage intake from adds / tank swaps has to be scaled down or redesigned so that it can be solo-tanked through the typical massive vulnerability or damage boosts SE uses to force add splits or tank swaps. Again, you are just limiting SE's options in terms of mechanical design to fulfill your delusion about what tanks should be.

[shao32]

snip

paid actors huh? when you really put a effort on kill a hard boss, you put you soul in that fight in a real challenge boss you feel so nice after that, alexander fail most on that, yeah i agree with alexander have some interest and new mechanics that are pretty cool, but the rest are just in core all the same.

do you really think the DPS bias meta is the right step to the future and healt of the game? a game where devs have a lot of jobs and want all jobs be viable and fun to play in any content? that can't happen now with this meta, the diference i want to show with respect to 2.x is that, tank/heals and dps was balance, all jobs was perfect viable, no one get judge for they skill set and job performance and let us make a lot of raid compositions, a meta where jobs get judge by and only byt they DPS performance cant have a future, you see what happen with palains, how bards suffer and machinist get the same, how monks the best dps job is ironically get fell apart by the dps utility of dragoon and ninja combo?

the reason why alexander get lower rates and low popularity in terms on boss desing was compared to coil boses was more like you fighting a monster hunter dragon challenge you defiant and harder but epic, to a dark souls boss where minor mistakes means instan raid wipe, even if alexander was only a savage mode the result was the same.

there is a problem here, there is a big problem here, you saw, i saw, everyone here saw, a big problem when heavensward was release and get worse and worse, and i cant accept the answer of git gud or leave, is not a problem for me but i feel is pretty unfair for many others and the game intself, im not a dev, and i dont have the solution for this so thats why i have faith on the new combant sistem and i belive this path is not the right direction at all, its hard i know, a MMO is not like any rpg game but close you mind and say thinks buff the others or die is not a way to do things.