Can we get rid of prisms please?

[Kaurie]

Transmutation stones (lvl 1-79) and crystals (lvl 80) haven't been around since the April 2014 update, when they merged them into one type, transmutation charges.

These transmutation charges are from:

• Map completion. (City giving 1 charge, explorable zones giving either 1 charge or 1 black lion chest key)
• WvW/PvP reward tracks (4 charges per reward track)
• Login rewards (3 charges every 28 days)
• Gem store

When buying them with gems, you can get them at these prices: 5/150 gems, 10/270 gems, 25/600 gems. Current exchange rate is 25g 12s for 100 gems, so roughly 7g 53s per transmutation charge. 1g is worth 0.08 USD, meaning 1 charge costs about 60 cents. If you were to transmute an entire set (8-9 slots, depending on twohanded weapon or dualwield) you'd be spending $4.80/$5.40 worth of gold on one set. Or you could explore a city 8-9 times.

There's nothing better about it, it's completely worse than the prism system, it's probably the worst in any MMO. To me, the rest of the transmutation system only barely makes up for it.

It's better, because there is the wardrobe system where outfits are unlocked account wide, and that you can dye multiple parts. I already said this. It's also better, because you do not need to have different types of transmutation charges/stones for different armor types like you do with glamour prisms, I also already said this.

I didn't know about the changes in April 2014, though.

What I don't get is why we are comparing the two crappiest models of a glamour system and trying to determine the winner. Let's try not to aim for 2nd last place.

[Nezerius]

It's better, because there is the wardrobe system where outfits are unlocked account wide, and that you can dye multiple parts. I already said this. It's also better, because you do not need to have different types of transmutation charges/stones for different armor types like you do with glamour prisms, I also already said this.

So what if there's only one type of transmutation charge? You still have to go through the hassle of obtaining them. In XIV that means spending a few 1000 gil in the marketboard, the GW2 equivalent being pricier and dependent on the gem exchange rate. And if you don't feel like running the Auric Basin gold train or spending money on gems, have fun spamming city after city map completions.

And yes, GW2 has a nice dyeing system. I don't see how that's related to a topic about the transmutation and glamour system, since they're separate systems.

What I don't get is why we are comparing the two crappiest models of a glamour system and trying to determine the winner. Let's try not to aim for 2nd last place.

That's your opinion. I think the glamour prisms are just fine, ever since they reduced the amount of grades down to 1 per DoH. The only other minor change I could think of that'd make it better, would be changing it to a currency.

[Kaurie]

So what if there's only one type of transmutation charge? You still have to go through the hassle of obtaining them. In XIV that means spending a few 1000 gil in the marketboard, the GW2 equivalent being pricier and dependent on the gem exchange rate. And if you don't feel like running the Auric Basin gold train or spending money on gems, have fun spamming city after city map completions.

And yes, GW2 has a nice dyeing system. I don't see how that's related to a topic about the transmutation and glamour system, since they're separate systems.

They are both dependent on in-game exchanges, whether that is fluctuating market board pricing or fluctuating gem stone pricing. In FFXIV, I've never seen a glamour prism for 1000, but it's most likely server market board dependent. In GW2, it's very easy and quick to get gold AND they are given out as a reward for a lot of other content (and if you so choose, you can spend real life money on them). As I said, I had well over 100 of these, without ever having bought any (and had used them reasonably frequently) over my ~1000 hours of playtime in that game before quitting.

It's related to the system of their glamour system, which is the topic. Specifically due to prisms? No. This topic has had quite a lot of discussion about changing armor appearances outside of the glamour prism system. Even if you disregard the dying aspect, GW2's system is still better due to having only 1 type of charge vs all of the different types we have, and the ability for you to unlock these in an outfit window and apply them at any time, without having to track down that armor piece again (or take up unnecessary inventory space).

That's your opinion. I think the glamour prisms are just fine, ever since they reduced the amount of grades down to 1 per DoH. The only other minor change I could think of that'd make it better, would be changing it to a currency.

Quite obviously it is my opinion. It is quite terrible though; it's cumbersome, it takes up your inventory, it's limiting on what you can change for the appearance and it's consumable. Have you experienced (m)any other systems, like WoW new one or Wildstar's? As I have said a few times, one thing I really like with Wildstars system is that it applies to your character as one of your available costumes, rather than applying to your gear. So on your character tab you have several costumes listed, and you can hit the pull down and select which costume you want to apply - and voila you're now in that appearance. You set up these costumes rather inexpensively at an NPC. After that, if you change your armor and upgrade, it won't affect your costumes, so you can just keep your looks without having to continuously glamour over things. The system is cheap, convenient, fast and simple.

EDIT: It appears there have been a few changes to the Wildstar system that I was unfamiliar with (that make it even better) - see Nuanet's post below for the update.

[Naunet]

Quite obviously it is my opinion. It is quite terrible though; it's cumbersome, it takes up your inventory, it's limiting on what you can change for the appearance and it's consumable. Have you experienced (m)any other systems, like WoW new one or Wildstar's? As I have said a few times, one thing I really like with Wildstars system is that it applies to your character as one of your available costumes, rather than applying to your gear. So on your character tab you have several costumes listed, and you can hit the pull down and select which costume you want to apply - and voila you're now in that appearance. You set up these costumes rather inexpensively at an NPC. After that, if you change your armor and upgrade, it won't affect your costumes, so you can just keep your looks without having to continuously glamour over things. The system is cheap, convenient, fast and simple.

Agreed 10000%. Though I have to point out that you don't need an NPC in WildStar. You can build and dye your costumes anywhere; the Protostar NPC is now only used as a barber shop (where, incidentally, you can completely re-customize your character short of changing their race, for only a fee of in-game plat). Oh, and 3 different dye channels per piece of gear!

I do prefer Rift's slightly more over WildStar's, though. WildStar has a number cap to how many armor skins you can save in the holo-wardrobe, and though it's quite high, it's not enough to cover all appearances in the game. Rift automatically unlocks any appearance that ever lands in your inventory (and the tooltip tells you right away if you already know the appearance), with no limit and without even soulbinding the item (unless the item was already soulbound). You also can unlock upwards of 50+ costume sets, compared to WildStar's 12. Regardless though, they are both amazingly streamlined and fun systems to play around with.

[Niwashi]

Considering there's at minimum 600 individual pieces per slot, glamour logs in this game would become increasingly unwieldy and cumbersome to deal with. When I want to glamour something, I don't want to have to shuffle through page after page after page of glamours I don't want or like to get to the four or five that do.

That just means the glamour log would need some good filtering options. We could have it just show items we'd marked as favorites, filter out items unsuited to our current class/job, show just the level 1 cosmetic only items or just the i90 AF set, show only headgear, show only items we'd dyed purple, or whatever.

A glamour log that unlocks everything as soon as you pick up the relevant piece would be a complete nightmare, as opposed to the 1-2 pages I have to look through now.

Then... don't learn everything?

I'm pretty sure Thunda Cat was referring to:

Rift automatically unlocks any appearance that ever lands in your inventory

There's two basic methods of handling a glamour log. Either (like Rift) it records everything you get, or (like WildStar or LOTRO) you select certain pieces and save their appearances. The former pattern leads to a lengthy list of items that needs some ability to filter it to more easily find the items you're looking for. The later pattern leads to running out of room if you want to store lots of items.

(I've never played WildStar, but at least in LOTRO, the Wardrobe limits were tight enough that people would run out of room there, so start swapping items in and out. The result was that we'd keep the original inventory items in addition to their wardrobe appearances, so that we could replace the wardrobe appearances if we ever swapped them out for something else, then later wanted them back again. The point of the Wardrobe was to save inventory space by not needing to keep the items themselves, but we —or at least a lot of us— ended up keeping them anyway because of the size limitations. So while it did manage to provide some convenience, it didn't do much for its primary purpose of inventory reduction.)

I'd prefer Rift's pattern.

[Naunet]

There's two basic methods of handling a glamour log. Either (like Rift) it records everything you get, or (like WildStar or LOTRO) you select certain pieces and save

I already addressed their concern via another avenue. They talked about there being multiple thousands of gear items registered to the database, but they did not mention that many of those items share appearances. In Rift, it's not the ITEM that unlocks - each item has an "outfit" registered, and that unlocks. If you get an item under a different name that is the same model, it's not unlocked a second (or third, or fourth) time.

In WildStar, you can also search your Holo-Wardrobe with key words (just like you'd search the auction house or whatever) to pull up related appearances. I can't remember if Rift has that or not. I usually just click through things when making outfits because I like toying with all my options and seeing what kind of new look I can put together.

I do prefer Rift's system and said so in one of my first posts in this thread.

[Niwashi]

In Rift, it's not the ITEM that unlocks - each item has an "outfit" registered, and that unlocks. If you get an item under a different name that is the same model, it's not unlocked a second (or third, or fourth) time.

Another advantage Rift's system has over LOTRO's. (In LOTRO, if the players themselves aren't careful about what appearances they save, the same one can get added to the Wardrobe multiple times. The system only combines them if the items also have the same name.)

Given the way this game currently handles glamour (e.g. distinguishing whether you glamoured a NQ Velveteen Shirt, HQ Velveteen Shirt, or Aetherial Velveteen Shirt), I'm afraid that's an optimization SE might miss, as it doesn't look as though their gear does currently have an appearance ID separate from the item ID. Hopefully, if they get as far as adding a glamour log, they'll update their item data so that the glamour log can work like Rift's, and only distinguish glamour for gear with different models.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Have you experienced (m)any other systems, like WoW new one or Wildstar's? As I have said a few times, one thing I really like with Wildstars system is that it applies to your character as one of your available costumes, rather than applying to your gear. So on your character tab you have several costumes listed, and you can hit the pull down and select which costume you want to apply - and voila you're now in that appearance. You set up these costumes rather inexpensively at an NPC. After that, if you change your armor and upgrade, it won't affect your costumes, so you can just keep your looks without having to continuously glamour over things. The system is cheap, convenient, fast and simple.

Wildstar's is also designed around a game where you play 1 class per character. In fact, all of these other games are.

I'm all for a glamour log, but i still think the prisms should stay. I'd rather not have to pay gil when I don't have to.

[Nezerius]

They are both dependent on in-game exchanges, whether that is fluctuating market board pricing or fluctuating gem stone pricing. In FFXIV, I've never seen a glamour prism for 1000, but it's most likely server market board dependent.

Glamour prism prices generally don't fluctuate all that much, unlike the gem prices, which are affected by the commonly occurring additions to the gem store. Which is why I said a few 1000 gil, not just a 1000 gil. Current prices on Balmung are between 1899-3900 gil (with the important ones, WVR/LTW/GSM ones being on the lower end)

In GW2, it's very easy and quick to get gold AND they are given out as a reward for a lot of other content (and if you so choose, you can spend real life money on them). As I said, I had well over 100 of these, without ever having bought any (and had used them reasonably frequently) over my ~1000 hours of playtime in that game before quitting.

I can't really take you serious on goldmaking in GW2, considering you haven't played it in years (almost two at least, since you didn't know about the transmutation change). Yes, transmutation stones and crystals were handed out a lot before April 2014, but that doesn't apply to current GW2. The content I listed in my previous post is the only way you'll be able to get transmutation charges, and it's a pretty slow way to get them.

It's related to the system of their glamour system, which is the topic. Specifically due to prisms? No. This topic has had quite a lot of discussion about changing armor appearances outside of the glamour prism system.

The main topic is still about whether the prisms should be removed or not. A dyeing system isn't tied directly to the glamour/transmutation system, but it does compliment it, since it allows you to change the colors of the armor that you just glamoured/transmutated.

Even if you disregard the dying aspect, GW2's system is still better due to having only 1 type of charge vs all of the different types we have, and the ability for you to unlock these in an outfit window and apply them at any time, without having to track down that armor piece again (or take up unnecessary inventory space).

20 minutes to obtain 1 transmutation charge vs. 1 minute of teleporting to a marketboard to buy a prism at a really, really low price. Sure sounds like the former is much better! (/sarcasm)
And yes, the ability to unlock armor and weapon skins is nice, but it doesn't make the transmutation charge system any better.

Quite obviously it is my opinion. It is quite terrible though; it's cumbersome, it takes up your inventory, it's limiting on what you can change for the appearance and it's consumable. Have you experienced (m)any other systems, like WoW new one or Wildstar's?

Considering I've mentioned parts of the GW2 and WoW systems, while acknowledging to only having played Wildstar for a short time (but enough to experience the glamour system), I'm going to assume that you forgot/skimmed over that post and simply went on to type another post about how terrible prisms are.

The system is cheap, convenient, fast and simple.

For the player, but is it as simple on the devs too? Changing a glamour system like this in a complete way isn't going to be easy, unless it's something that's developed that way right from the start. An extensive glamour system like that probably wasn't all that high on their priority list back when they added it, since most of their resources were also going into developing actual content. As a sidenote, the current dyeing system is in a similar situation, possibly due to it being a relic from the 1.0 version (which I haven't played). Again, their priority on that likely wasn't all that high, since they were busy turning the actual game from a trainwreck into a successful game.

[Kaurie]

Glamour prism prices generally don't fluctuate all that much, unlike the gem prices, which are affected by the commonly occurring additions to the gem store. Which is why I said a few 1000 gil, not just a 1000 gil. Current prices on Balmung are between 1899-3900 gil (with the important ones, WVR/LTW/GSM ones being on the lower end)

I missed the word few, my bad.

I can't really take you serious on goldmaking in GW2, considering you haven't played it in years (almost two at least, since you didn't know about the transmutation change). Yes, transmutation stones and crystals were handed out a lot before April 2014, but that doesn't apply to current GW2. The content I listed in my previous post is the only way you'll be able to get transmutation charges, and it's a pretty slow way to get them.

Yeah, I haven't played that game to any serious extent since I started in FFXIV (fall of 2013). I've briefly logged on once in awhile, but that is it. Gold, last time I played, was pretty easy to get, I'd assume with inflation that it would be even easier now.

20 minutes to obtain 1 transmutation charge vs. 1 minute of teleporting to a marketboard to buy a prism at a really, really low price. Sure sounds like the former is much better! (/sarcasm)
And yes, the ability to unlock armor and weapon skins is nice, but it doesn't make the transmutation charge system any better.

You are making the assumption that you are doing all of those tasks to obtain the charge, as opposed to just having a plethoria in your inventory for having already done those things. You can still obtain a charge quite quickly via in-game gold, like you can here. The difference between there and here is there are multiple ways to get it there.

Considering I've mentioned parts of the GW2 and WoW systems, while acknowledging to only having played Wildstar for a short time (but enough to experience the glamour system), I'm going to assume that you forgot/skimmed over that post and simply went on to type another post about how terrible prisms are.

I must have missed it, or forgot it. Sorry. I have a hard time understanding how one can think the system in FFXIV is satisfactory after having experienced the systems in those games. I think I got confused, because you keep talking about Guild Wars 2, when I've repeatedly suggested they take the systems from WoW and Wildstar (and not GW2).

For the player, but is it as simple on the devs too? Changing a glamour system like this in a complete way isn't going to be easy, unless it's something that's developed that way right from the start. An extensive glamour system like that probably wasn't all that high on their priority list back when they added it, since most of their resources were also going into developing actual content. As a sidenote, the current dyeing system is in a similar situation, possibly due to it being a relic from the 1.0 version (which I haven't played). Again, their priority on that likely wasn't all that high, since they were busy turning the actual game from a trainwreck into a successful game.

Honestly, I don't really care if something is difficult for the devs. That doesn't come into consideration when comparing what their competitors offer. Obviously, the easiest thing for the devs to do is to not develop any future content, but proposing that would be ridiculous. I think we can all assume that they will need to put in work, in order to provide a competitive product.