The Remaining Healers

[VanilleFang]

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They have among the lowest maximum HP of all avaliable jobs in original FFV, as an example. Also, even if they have higher HP it's only marginal, and since they are a hybrid melee-mage they are relegated to the front row. This caused them to have very low survivability overall, considering they are never far above other mages in any defensive category.

@Everything else: I never said I thought RDM would make a good healer. I stick by them being better as a DPS class.

You want to be a tank? How does that reflect the tradition of a RDM's signature ability X-Magic?

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

You want to be a tank? How does that reflect the tradition of a RDM's signature ability X-Magic?

How does Holy reflect WHM's status as a healer? How do songs represent Bards status as a dps? How does Ninjutsu reflect Nin's status as a dps when it's primary ability has always been throw?

Simply focusing on one singular facet doesn't always give you the complete picture.

Following your logic, let's toss cleric stance, Deliverance, Sword Oath, FoE and FoF, all WHM dps skills, all shield spells for Scholar...

[Talraen]

How does that reflect the tradition of a RDM's signature ability X-Magic?

X-magic is less a RDM "tradition" than something they added to FFV to make red mage viable when the very concept of the class up to that point was consistently "black and white magic, but at lower level." If that's all red mage was in FFV, it would have been basically worthless in the long run. Like it was (by design) in FFIII.

How does Holy reflect WHM's status as a healer? How do songs represent Bards status as a dps? How does Ninjutsu reflect Nin's status as a dps when it's primary ability has always been throw?

Simply focusing on one singular facet doesn't always give you the complete picture.

Following your logic, let's toss cleric stance, Deliverance, Sword Oath, FoE and FoF, all WHM dps skills, all shield spells for Scholar...

That's all fair, but what about RDM suggests a tank?

[Docent]

That's all fair, but what about RDM suggests a tank?

1- Melee ranged combatant
2- Magic ability that allows it to cure and protect itself (cure, blink and similar spells)
3- Not the best at healing -- Can't compete with actual healers at their job
4- Not the best at dpsing -- Can't compete with actual DPS at their job

Sounds like either a new class type (Hybrid, Support, etc.) or a tank.

Yoshi-P already confirmed Stormblood will not bring a new class type.

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That said, I do believe RDM could be a healer job in XIV and I wouldn't be mad, since they would still get to do the "heal sometime, dps sometime" part of the job. I just would hate it if RDM wasn't a sword-user. And it would be weird to have to be in melee range and duck in/out of aoe as a healer.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

That's all fair, but what about RDM suggests a tank?

They've always been the tankier of the mages, barring possibly blue mage, traditionally have had a very versatile role in parties, had several defensive and offensive spells, and used both sword play and magic to fight, debuff, and strengthen allies, while being capable of taking several hits, depending on build and game. In some games they can use a shield as well.

The most versatile role in this game has always been tanks. It's only natural looking at both the design choices of this game and the general design of jobs in the varied roles.

1- Melee ranged combatant
2- Magic ability that allows it to cure and protect itself (cure, blink and similar spells)
3- Not the best at healing -- Can't compete with actual healers at their job
4- Not the best at dpsing -- Can't compete with actual DPS at their job

My points exactly.

[Talraen]

They've always been the tankier of the mages, barring possibly blue mage, traditionally have had a very versatile role in parties, had several defensive and offensive spells, and used both sword play and magic to fight, debuff, and strengthen allies, while being capable of taking several hits, depending on build and game. In some games they can use a shield as well.

The most versatile role in this game has always been tanks. It's only natural looking at both the design choices of this game and the general design of jobs in the varied roles.

No, they've actually never been the tankier of the mages. Not in FFI, not in FFIII, not in FFV, and not in FFXI. They have on occasion been pretty good offensively, but they have never been good defensively. The best argument one could make is that the combination of all their buffs allowed them to basically live forever in FFXI, but that was less "tanking" than winning a war of attrition due to having endless MP.

White mage has been tankier than red mage on several occasions, though in most cases they both share the worst armor in the game. (This is probably due to the influence of D&D, where clerics wore armor and any class that had magic user spells didn't, hybrid or not. I've always assumed the original red mage is vaguely inspired by a D&D bard, also a light armor class.) This is actually most true in FFXI, which is where red mage is the most tank-like. White mage gets decent shields and even some honest to god heavy armor in that game.

So could they make red mage a tank? Sure. I mean ninja ended up being a tank in FFXI. Would it have any basis in an existing Final Fantasy red mage's role? No.

1- Melee ranged combatant
2- Magic ability that allows it to cure and protect itself (cure, blink and similar spells)
3- Not the best at healing -- Can't compete with actual healers at their job
4- Not the best at dpsing -- Can't compete with actual DPS at their job

Sounds like either a new class type (Hybrid, Support, etc.) or a tank.

So your argument boils down to "it can't be a DPS, and it can't be a healer, so it must be a tank"? I mean that's kind of insulting to the concept of tanking. Should dark knight have therefore been a healer, since traditionally they had heavy armor and good offense, and thus couldn't be a tank or a DPS?

DPS are defined by offense, healers are defined by healing, and tanks are defined by defense. Red mages traditionally have had offense and healing, but never (despite the repeated baseless claims in this thread) defense. They don't wear heavy armor, they don't have a lot of hit points, and they don't generally have unique defensive abilities beyond those of the white and black mages they represent. I mean, I guess they have Phalanx in FFXI, so that's something.

I agree with you that red mage doesn't slot nicely into DPS or healer, but that doesn't make it a tank. I'm actually very curious (and a little concerned) to see what they do with red mage.

[Docent]

So your argument boils down to "it can't be a DPS, and it can't be a healer, so it must be a tank"? I mean that's kind of insulting to the concept of tanking. [...] and tanks are defined by defense

Well, warriors are known for their offense, despite being tanks. That's because tank isn't mostly about defense, it's about threat first and foremost. The tankiest characters who don't have agro aren't tanks. They're just hard to kill.

Historically, RDM has good grounds for being a tank, but not because of their stellar HP pool or high DEF or magic DEF, as people often point out. What they have is tremendous EHP (Effective Hit Points) through their ability to cast healing spells. a 600 HP mage able to cure 4000 hp is a lot sturdier than a 800 hp fighter who takes 20% less damage per hit.

[Talraen]

Well, warriors are known for their offense, despite being tanks. That's because tank isn't mostly about defense, it's about threat first and foremost. The tankiest characters who don't have agro aren't tanks. They're just hard to kill.

Historically, RDM has good grounds for being a tank, but not because of their stellar HP pool or high DEF or magic DEF, as people often point out. What they have is tremendous EHP (Effective Hit Points) through their ability to cast healing spells. a 600 HP mage able to cure 4000 hp is a lot sturdier than a 800 hp fighter who takes 20% less damage per hit.

A white mage would have much higher "EHP" than a red mage in this case, given that their HP, armor, and healing capabilities are always as good or better. They even get shields sometimes! Should they also be tanks?

As for warriors, I don't know if you've played FF1, but they are absolutely a tank. They basically exist to be put at the front of the party and take 1 damage from the attacks that decimate every other class. And they evolve into knights, which in Japan are paladins, so FF1 actually covered both of the original tank classes by itself pretty nicely.

The problem with determining which FF classes are tanks is that the idea of threat does not apply to most games in the series. FF1 was the closest example, since party order determined who was most likely to be attacked, and lo and behold, it's the game with the most tank-like classes. Other than that, what part of any FF job actually suggests tanking? Mostly just the paladin's cover ability.

So with the idea of threat being non-applicable to every FF game that has jobs or classes, we need to go by something else. And it's pretty obvious that the through-line for tanks in FFXIV is "heavy armor." No one else can use it in this game, and every tank class so far uses heavy armor traditionally. (Dragoons generally do too, but given that their signature ability takes them out of play for a turn, they would hardly make good tanks. )

EDIT: I want to make it clear, I'm not saying red mages can't or shouldn't be tanks. Hell, I think that would be pretty interesting. What I'm saying is there is absolutely no basis in the series of making them tanks.