Changes/Abilities you'd like to see for 4.0 tanks.

[Saeno]

Apologies if this thread has been made countless of times since the announcement of Stormblood, but I couldn't find this topic on page 1 or 2 and I'd like to see the input of some people here about changes they'd like to see for their favorite tank moving into 4.0. So let's begin.

PLD: Definitely more AoE. I suspect a nerf will be made to block scaling since there was a nerf placed back in 3.0 for blocking ( and parry), and this relates to PLD lacking AoE because I believe the reason why PLD lacks AoE GCD DPS is because SE is too afraid of creating a tank that has the ability to mitigate a lot of damage in an AoE pack via block while still being able to do good DPS with on GCD AoE coupled with the periodic blood bath for 15 seconds. PLD on GCD AoE has got to be the single most requested thing for PLD now and seeing some for 4.0 would be amazing. Aside from that, I cant really imagine what else PLD would want, aside from some sort of TP gain and other quality of life changes within the current PLD toolkit, like divine veil not needing a proc.

WAR: Im going to throw a curve ball here and say that I would like to see WAR gain some main tank exclusive abilities/traits akin to blocking and reprisal/blood price so we can see WARs at the front line being the MT instead of the defacto OT that it has been for years. I understand that WAR is build the way it is because its clear that SE wants players to choose between PLD or DRK for their MT and your other tank will always be WAR, but so long as this remains as the formula for tanks, it basically means every tank moving forward will ALWAYS compete for the MT slot where WAR is just locked into every single static, and that can't be healthy for this game when more tanks are introduced. Its also very difficult to make another OT centered tank as strong as WAR because then you would run WAR/new tank instead of MT/OT like they wanted. So, with that, I'd like to see WARs gain a block/reprisal skill to incentivize them as a MT, and perhaps some skills can be adjusted so that WAR is more in line with DRK/PLD and not just plainly better, locking down one of two tank slots.

DRK: As a DRK main, I would love to see more dark arts centered abilities, because the dark arts mechanic is amazing and really fun to manage. I'd like to see the animation lock on plunge be reduced to match shoulder tackle so DRK can easily double weave oGCDs while they use a plunge. As a DRK, its critical that you can double weave within every single global, so making that a thing for every oGCD would be very nice. Id like to see blood weapon get a grit only counterpart to incentivize DRK's to use grit a little more and not just always wanting to be out of it due to the nature of blood weapon. Id like to see the potencies of certain current dark arts abilities be adjusted so that they leave an actual impact, I'm looking at you Powerslash and dark dance. As for new abilities, anything that lets us reduce more damage, heal more, deal more damage would be welcomed. DRK runs a little low on the physical mitigation side and cant really self heal out of grit, so new abilities to help this would be grand. Secretly, I'd like DRK to gain a 1200 potency heal like clemency or equilibrium but that's wishful thinking.

SAM: Good joke. But seriously, if this job becomes a tank, I'd like to see it become counter-based as opposed to PLD's block. I'd also like this job to be about timing if it does end up a tank. I'm not sure how it would work, but it would be really cool to see a tank use situational abilities to help tank/reflect the damage it takes.

So tell me what you guys would like to see for your tank or the other tanks, or what you'd like to see for a new tank.

[Shurrikhan]

I'd mostly like to see Gladiator, Marauder, and their respective jobs differentiated a bit more by way of (new) undermechanics, even if that would require first adding new coding into the game. These would likely include things like a rework of RNG mitigation tools, inclusion of new means of damage suppression or escapes, whatever is necessary to include any other new tools for active mitigation, "relative potency" debuffs (stronger effects on weaker enemies, amounting to similar mitigation caused, while no enemies are ever entirely immune), and maybe even a revision to how enmity works.

On a job by job level, I haven't much to say. I hope PLD can reach a level of AoE output and immediacy more even with the other two without sacrificing uniqueness (hopefully, even, improving on it instead). I'd like to see more done with the two Oaths, and a way for the time spent swapping to pay off, rather than to just make them abilities outright. Ideally, I'd like to see more of a slightly more theatrical/thematic spin on DRK even while remaining the brutally efficient "bastard tank", but it's basically fine as is.

In the long run I'd hope to see:

• Most of our duller trait replaced with core, mechanical, more highly gameplay-affecting ones that can better bring out the feel of the given class and later job.
• Some slight balancing (such as by greater self-heal contribution or other stat-scaling factors) against how active mitigation against a given boss only fades in value as gear goes up, yet healing continually increases, making the tankier side of tank play only as valuable as the saved healer (offensive) GCDs, which—though scaling upward just as heals do—scarcely ever produce as much raid dps contribution as the prioritization of the tank's personal dps unless that tank had already just maxed out the healing affordable by high-efficiency or "free" (ability) heals alone;
• (If the above condition is satisfied) More range of tanks—they need not be balanced with the same potential dps and mitigation, only that the further they push into one extreme or the other - the less simultaneous output they have;
• Similarly, more styles of tanks—bring on the blink tanks, the ghost tanks, the support elements, and so forth;
• And greater "tank-like" gameplay interaction by "non-tanks"—likely playing into any of the new undermechanics, this should make the tank feel more "central" than "obligatory", and the party less aloof to its needs regardless of "role".

P.S. I'd like for SAM to be a hybrid, preferably even with the option of equipping either mail (DRG) or plate (tank) armor, with high outputs as a tank especially in skillful, rapid sorts of play, but among the lower simultaneous direct outputs, and definitely lower on overall mitigation unless played very well in regards to the particular encounter - a tank that excels among moderate damage and in quick response and good adaptability and adjustment for his healers enough to make up for technically lower basic or on-demand mitigation (especially against large hits). As a DPS... well I guess that's for another thread.

P.P.S. One thing I don't want to see from DRK is for its APM to go down, but nor do I want to be unable to weave Dark Arts slightly early in order to be able to get both oGCDs off as they come off CD next GCD just because almost every ability has become DA-modifiable. I'd love to see more done with its finishers and, again, a whole lot more thematic elements and near-craziness.

[Brannigan]

For paladin I'd like them to add something that sets them apart from the other tanks and changes how you press your buttons. It doesn't necessarily have to be a new resource, but it could be something like any of:

-procs. There's shield swipe and Dark Knight has a couple off of parry, but that's really it for tanks. If paladin combo enders had a chance to proc other combo enders, that would change your gameplay. If your Savage Blade had a chance to consume your DoT effects to do a ton of extra damage, that would change up your rotation. Shield Swipe, Spirits Within, and Circle of Scorn could proc cooldown resets on each other in some unholy orgy of off GCDs. Perhaps Shield Swipe could sometimes proc a mini perfect balance and let you use any of your combo buttons freely. These are just examples off the top of my head.
-abilities/WS which have effects that vary wildly depending on which stance you're in. Paladin is the original 2-stance tank but has the fewest changes to its skills based on stance. That's lame.
-a faster GCD. This is what really sets mnk/ninja apart from dragoon for me. It just makes the classes feel different from their equivalents. Not my first choice, but it'd work.
-more spellcasting. This would be unpopular, but with changes to accommodate it (some form of interrupt protection, allowing blocking during casts), this would definitely set paladin apart from the other tanks. Right now Clemency and the ability to save other people is one of the things I like most about paladin because neither of the other two can do it.

Other than that, I'd like them to purge the uninspired filler abilities like Awareness. They shouldn't phone in the design on paladin just because they think of it as a baseline tank. I'd like to see another way to use MP (if it was a damaging ability this would also offset the need for any sort of TP gain move, which is a skill I'd like to avoid since it'd probably be boring). I'd also like to see more abilities that have big payoffs for timing and execution like Sheltron - in Living Liquid this thing was super awesome.

[Lyth]

General:

• One primary stat (VIT) instead of two. Remove STR dependence from gear. Adjust accessories and food accordingly.
• Standardise parry and block. Either tie both into MH/OH and remove parry from armor/accs, or incorporate both into a gear stat with appropriate scaling that affects both the rate and %DR.
• Consider eliminating accuracy from gear.
• Make gear choices more transparent. Show actual values for DR and proc rates.

DRK:

• Allow Souleater's HP steal to function outside of Grit.
• Give attacks and spells performed under the Walking Dead effect additional HP steal.
• Remove evasion from DADD and increase the parry rate slightly. Allow parry procs under DADD a chance to reset reprisal's recast, as well as increasing the chance of Low Blow resets.
• A reverse Shadewalker.
• Celes' Runic/Magic Sealing Sword.
• Silence.
• Rework PvP utility.

[Claymore65]

Dark Knight

• Living Dead: I'd like to see Living Dead simplified. Right now, it's too cumbersome to be used effectively in PUG groups, at least easily. Most of the times I try it, healers end up panicking, and just prevent me from dying in the first place, which makes the cooldown completely useless. Requiring you to die for it be effective makes it confusing, and if your healer isn't on point about healing you to full after that, then it isn't great either. It requires a lot of coordination to use effectively, requiring either voice chat, annoying macros, or well-experienced healers to do anything useful. It's fine with a well-trained team, but unlike Hallowed Ground or Homgang it's not great outside of that. Simplifying it somehow would be very helpful.
• Dark Arts Dark Dance: Change it to just increase Parry Rate even more. While yes, it can bring some good mitigation, the evasion increase is at odds with the rest of the Dark Knight's kit. Blood Price and parry procs make the evasion less effective than it should be. Ideally, we don't want our skills to clash with the rest of the build needlessly. The blind from Dark Arts Dark Passenger falls into a similar boat, although to a lesser extent.
• More Dark Arts: Dark Arts is one of the coolest mechanics Dark Knight has. Adding new functionality to skills and abilities at the cost of a heavy MP drain is unique. I'd love to see more skills, like Delirium or maybe even Plunge, gain Dark Arts effects.

[aleph_null]

• Living Dead: I'd like to see Living Dead simplified. Right now, it's too cumbersome to be used effectively in PUG groups, at least easily. Most of the times I try it, healers end up panicking, and just prevent me from dying in the first place, which makes the cooldown completely useless. Requiring you to die for it be effective makes it confusing, and if your healer isn't on point about healing you to full after that, then it isn't great either. It requires a lot of coordination to use effectively, requiring either voice chat, annoying macros, or well-experienced healers to do anything useful. It's fine with a well-trained team, but unlike Hallowed Ground or Homgang it's not great outside of that. Simplifying it somehow would be very helpful.

That also happens to holmgang though, holmgang is useless if the healers keep topping you up and you never reach 1 hp.

[Jpec07]

I'd really like to see Paladins gain an offensive advantage from blocking an attack, to give their combat a sword-and-board feel to it (maybe make it so blocking adds a crit or SS bonus, or allows the next attack to bypass the damage reduction from ShO). I'd also like to see some love given to Sword Oath, differentiating the gameplay there (the shield just sits there on offense, which is a very poor thing, as shields can actually be very effective weapons). As such, I'd like to see combos and abilities that make more use of our shields' offensive characteristics.

Parry and the entire combat table needs to be reworked. I'm glad they're doing this.

I'd also really like it if Paladin gameplay was faster, to account for our smaller weapon. I'd really like it if GLA/PLD had a 1.5s base GCD instead of a 2.5s GCD, adjusting potency accordingly (even if it doesn't actually do more damage, I really feel like GLA/PLD should be the tank that feels the fastest in combat).

Rolling some abilities together would help my action bars a bit. Give Fight or Flight lifesteal while in Shield Oath, and a SkS buff in Sword Oath, roll the Awareness effect into Bulwark, and give us some way to proc Swiftcast to cast mitigation spells more easily (and I know some people hate it, but please don't take my Stoneskin away).

[Talith]

WAR has everything to be a great MT right now. The reason we end up as OT is because the other jobs are not as great in the OT role.

[Lyth]

I'd also really like it if Paladin gameplay was faster, to account for our smaller weapon. I'd really like it if GLA/PLD had a 1.5s base GCD instead of a 2.5s GCD, adjusting potency accordingly (even if it doesn't actually do more damage, I really feel like GLA/PLD should be the tank that feels the fastest in combat).

High speed and mobility are defining features of DRK gameplay. PLD feels more like you're planting your feet and trading blows, in keeping with the tower shield aesthetic. Skills like Tempered Will also reflect this.

[Shurrikhan]

General:

• One primary stat (VIT) instead of two. Remove STR dependence from gear. Adjust accessories and food accordingly.
• Standardise parry and block. Either tie both into MH/OH and remove parry from armor/accs, or incorporate both into a gear stat with appropriate scaling that affects both the rate and %DR.
• Consider eliminating accuracy from gear.
• Make gear choices more transparent. Show actual values for DR and proc rates.

I'm curious as to one bit here. Removing the immense advantage of melding Strength to Fending accessories, or instead giving that level of strength by default, would certainly be a upgrade QoL-wise, community-wise, choice-wise, and so forth, and standardizing parry and block into a single "Guard" for instance would decrease counter-synergy and probably fit later-day cross-class options (if they even exist once 4.0 hits), but having the percent damage reduction increase over time seems like a reversion to what they purposely removed in ARR. If the RNG mitigation seems unreliable now, then wouldn't it be all the more so if the stat's contribution were split between both chance and strength of mitigation? Why not just have a single obvious formula for excessive percentile stats, e.g. if you have 33% block chance atop a Shelltron (133% chance), it will block for 133% its normal %DR?

It reminds me of what was done for Critical Strike in order to keep its weight from tapering off over time (though overtuned even then), but the thing is Critical Strike has altogether different factors at play. "Guard" would be a reactive scalar, its strength increasing over time only proportionate to damage that would be taken. Both have procs, but whereas the Critical is the key stat for any attacker dependent on its procs, "Guard" would be unlikely ever to pay off over Determination, Critical, or (if fixed) Skill Speed so long as Low Blow is the only resettable counterattack ability.

Further, should percentage mitigation be all that RNG mitigation tables are capable of? The idea then is that you're causing a more 'glancing' blow each time. But we're blocking these hits straight on, and getting no more contribution percentage-wise out of blocking a giant Dragon's trying to stomp us into the ground vs. an emaciated sprite attacking us with a stick.

I keep seeing Rate vs. Rate & %DR ideas crop up here, but I have to wonder, is there something so wrong with the idea of some portion of flat mitigation that no one's willing to consider it, even as a class- or type-specific factor for RNG mitigation?

Is no one interested either in seeing multiple types of defensive stats (e.g. "Guard", "Deflection", "Evasion"), or having the original three (Determination, Critical, Speed) have impacts on defensive components, or having these sets swap between each other via stances, etc.?

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Eliminating accuracy would remove part of the benefit of bringing a tank in the first place (apart from the positional bonuses on wholly position-dependent classes/jobs), would remove such utilities as Rain of Death's evasion down (unless evasion were revised), and would mean you have one fewer tool by which to integrate certain other undermechanics.

Absolutely agreed on transparency, in all regards.

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P.S. Any thoughts on shield types? I'm guessing standardize them?