Main Scenario Restriction Bloodstorm - Very Very Bad idea.

[Blood-Aki]

Haha! I can see this interview:

Queue Manager: Good morning. What can we do for you today?
Lv30-ish DRK: I would like to enter Braflox Longstop
QM: Ah, very good. We always need good tanks for this instance. Your experience with the earlier dungeons will certainly help you here.
DRK: Experience?
QM: Ummm, yes. You've completed earlier dungeons as a tank? Haukke? Toto-Rak? Halatali?
DRK: I've run them as DPS
QM: Copperbell? Tam Tara.... Sastasha?
DRK: That'd be a no
QM: Hall of Novice!!??
DRK: Hall of Novice?
QM: GTF outta my office!

lol, the funny part before brayflox dungeon is like taking gender studies, in order to get masters, sure you'll "learn" something, but it will not help you in the slightest for anything important later on.

[Gemina]

Sigh. You aren't going to be a Conjurer in Qarn or Cutter's Cry, thus a discussion about pre-30 dungeons wouldn't include either. So no, I'm not saying that.

You're a CNJ from level 1-60. Even if you want to use pre-30 dungeons, Maws and Haukke are still punishing instances if mechanics are ignored.

You aren't running into many detrimental effects before Brayflox. And like I said above, people can read exactly what Esuna does. There isn't anything to learn beyond "use this to cure posion/paralysis/etc."

Learning what it does, and learning how and when to use it are two different things. For instance the description tells you that not all detrimental effects can be removed, but it doesn't tell you which ones. This is learned through experience. It doesn't matter how much it is used; it only matters when it is needed, and if you're not casting it or healing through it, you're hurting the group.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I quoted or why. The person who started this discussion mentioned how you aren't learning anything while leveling a class because their "rotations" are so minimalistic.

This isn't an argument so much as it is emphasizing on how important those early skills are, and how important it is to become proficient with them.

No, I said the game doesn't teach you anything pre-30, or frankly, at all. Once again, we're talking classes only here.

It remains an erroneous statement. 1-30 is elementary school, and it is here you learn the fundamentals of your class. It is crazy to me that you feel this content is irrelevant.

In your opinion. All of this is subjective. You or I may enjoy the story, but that doesn't mean everyone else will or their opinions of it are somehow wrong. Would you tell someone "you're playing the wrong game" if they just picked up Call of Duty for the campaign? There are plenty of people who like crafting, raiding, socializing or whatever else and don't give one iota about the story.

Regardless if you do or don't enjoy the story, it doesn't change the amount of effort that went into developing it. The game has many features for players to enjoy. Whether your love is PvP, Chocobo racing, gathering, crafting, or raiding; the MSQ is at the very core of this game, and progressing in the game requires progressing the MSQ. When you subscribe to FFXIV, you sign up for that. There is just no way I am going to believe gated content isn't necessary when I keep seeing lv50+ green leafs running around Eorzea.

[Zojha]

"The game already allows some exceptions for the sake of progression, so it should allow more of them, and especially the need for progression"

These aren't exceptions - these are the rule. Every single quest chronologically belongs to the period they were introduced in and if it weren't for this time bubble, you'd have to remove them when you chronologically pass them OR make every little sidequest mandatory to proceed in the timeline. So if you progress to Heavensward, all quests from ARR would have to be gone entirely - the people in need either died or got their stuff sorted themselves, Bahamut returns to life from the coil and the unattended cloud of darkness devours this world. Yep, everyone dies - please start a new character and try again.

If you tell a story, you can jump in anytime and go in any direction - that does not change the story that is being told. Whether you read the last chapter first and then go through to the beginning or start at the beginning and go through to the end, the story is one and the same. Go ahead, try to bring the same argument in the discussion of any book series, go ahead and claim the first part of lord of the rings contradicts the third because people who were dead in the third are alive in the first - I doubt you will be taken seriously. I know I'm having a hard time. But go ahead anyway, I'd honestly love to know how people respond to that.

And fun fact: Even if you absolutely insist on the argument despite all odds, you can still just crack it all up to the Echo showing you visions of the past in those quests.

[Naunet]

Considering it's better to frequently switch in and out of Cleric Stance, I'd hardly call it a "Click and forget". Having recently came back to level WHM, I also wouldn't say Esuna rarely has any use. Is it vital ? No. But you're still supposed to learn how to rely on it before it becomes necessary. That's the point of a learning curve. It's the same for Medica, as it should teach you to judge how to spend your MP efficiently before forcing you to starve when done wrong.

Show me a dungeon pre-Brayflox where you need to cleanse something or where there's a lot of AoE damage going out necessitating Medica.

Then you could have done better. Again, that's the purpose of a learning curve. If you wait for Medica to be mandatory to accustom yourself to use it, it's a bit late.

If you're using Medica when it isn't necessary, you're wasting mana and potentially generating too much threat.

Stop pretending that the pre-30 content has any sort of challenge that teaches players how to play their class well. xD What's more, skipping the story quest =/= skipping leveling, so this entire debate is absurd.

"What?! I have to complete more semesters before I get my masters? No, no, no...I want to just have it and start enjoying a big salary without any effort!"

"Wtf....everyone boots me from every job interview. Life sucks and it's not fair boohooooo"

Lol @comparing an MMO that is played for fun with getting a degree necessary for a real life job.

I'd enjoy the game less, because it wouldn't stay true to itself. Here's an example. You play WoW as a Human Paladin. You read/played just about everyhting in the Warcraft universe, and then they release Wrath Of The Lich King, with the Nightelf Death Knight...in theory, you should be like "WTF, Nightelves can't be Death Knight, they're protected from the scourge !". After that, you have Cataclysm with the Nightelf Mage..."That's bullshit, Nightelves can't be mages ! The Elves mages are the High elves, thus the Blood Elves !"...in all that, you still play a Human Paladin, so it doesn't change the game for your character. You wouldn't be (haven't been if you played WoW) bothered by that ?

Or else, if they decide "Fuck the lore, let's bring this character back from the dead without any explanation !" wouldn't it bother you ?

How the heck is ANY of that related to a player in the game choosing to not do some quests while their leveling?

[Niwashi]

Stop pretending that the pre-30 content has any sort of challenge that teaches players how to play their class well. xD What's more, skipping the story quest =/= skipping leveling, so this entire debate is absurd.

Actually, the subtopic that pertains to pre-30 content in particular is about skipping the leveling itself. It branched out from the parent topic based on my observation that HW jobs starting at level 30 rather than level 1 already presented a lesser version of the problem that a level jump potion would. You don't get to level HW jobs from 1 to 30, getting a skill at a time and a chance to work with that before getting the next one. You're presented with the whole level 30 collection of skills at once. People wound up in dungeons while still trying to figure out which of those skill icons was for what, since none of them were familiar yet.

(And even there, I acknowledged that the impact was fairly minimal at 30. It would be quite a bit more significant if it were at higher levels, though.)

[Reynhart]

Show me a dungeon pre-Brayflox where you need to cleanse something or where there's a lot of AoE damage going out necessitating Medica.

I think some people did Toto-Rak so many times that their brain uncounsciously forget it

If you're using Medica when it isn't necessary, you're wasting mana and potentially generating too much threat.

Yes, you have to learn where and when to use it.

[FinalWolf]

I don't see the issue here. New players should just enjoy the game and learn along the way while having fun. If you hate the story just skip the cutscene. There is no rush since like 9 months till stormblood.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Just looked what you said in last page again, you didn't say pre30 first
The only thing you mentioned was replying someone like basic skills are kind of useless in your fight

Look at who I quoted. Blood-aki talked about classes and pre-30 dungeons. Hence my response to that. Bringing up the feast isn't relevant.

You're a CNJ from level 1-60. Even if you want to use pre-30 dungeons, Maws and Haukke are still punishing instances if mechanics are ignored.

If mechanics are ignored. That has nothing to do with being taught your class/job. Frankly, both are still very easy.

Learning what it does, and learning how and when to use it are two different things. For instance the description tells you that not all detrimental effects can be removed, but it doesn't tell you which ones. This is learned through experience. It doesn't matter how much it is used; it only matters when it is needed, and if you're not casting it or healing through it, you're hurting the group.

And that is still not a difficult concept to grasp. Anyone with even basic knowledge of roleplay games knows how status effects and potential immunity work. Regardless, you'll only real notice Esuna not work at level 50.

This isn't an argument so much as it is emphasizing on how important those early skills are, and how important it is to become proficient with them.

What of people who fate leveled? I took Dragoon from 34 to 52 in a single day, then used a guide because the game never teaches you a proper rotation.

It remains an erroneous statement. 1-30 is elementary school, and it is here you learn the fundamentals of your class. It is crazy to me that you feel this content is irrelevant.

The subject specifically pertained to how little you actually learn while leveling. My Bard and BLM are only level 10 at the moment. I can power both through to 50 and will barely learn a thing about either if I don't either ask actual veteran BRD/BLM players or look up a guide on my own.

Regardless if you do or don't enjoy the story, it doesn't change the amount of effort that went into developing it. The game has many features for players to enjoy. Whether your love is PvP, Chocobo racing, gathering, crafting, or raiding; the MSQ is at the very core of this game, and progressing in the game requires progressing the MSQ. When you subscribe to FFXIV, you sign up for that. There is just no way I am going to believe gated content isn't necessary when I keep seeing lv50+ green leafs running around Eorzea.

There will eventually come a point where the quest bloat will be too much for new players and they'll simply pick up other games. From a business perspective, Square cannot allow that. Regardless, the whole crux of this argument is the MSQ doesn't teach you how to play, and skipping it won't necessarily leave people clueless. This is all made evident by those who have grinded fates, potd or even just spammed the same few dungeons to level a second/eleven job. And the thing is, should you feel these aspects of the game are beneficial. By all means, go right ahead and enjoy them. No one has said nor encouraged removing the story entirely. People have only argued an alternative for those who aren't interested wouldn't ruin the game or have much (if any) impact on those who enjoy the story.

[Naunet]

You don't get to level HW jobs from 1 to 30, getting a skill at a time and a chance to work with that before getting the next one. You're presented with the whole level 30 collection of skills at once. People wound up in dungeons while still trying to figure out which of those skill icons was for what, since none of them were familiar yet.

(And even there, I acknowledged that the impact was fairly minimal at 30. It would be quite a bit more significant if it were at higher levels, though.)

Honestly, having just leveled AST 30-50, it took me all of ten minutes max to glance through my skills - and that includes the time it took to organize them on my bar in the way I wanted. Had zero problems jumping into Brayflox. Was even having my tank partner pull packs of 7+ mobs (or more) just so I wouldn't fall asleep.

That said, I do not want a jump potion and have never asked for one. All I want is to be able to do dungeons and zones when I'm at the appropriate level without having to drag through the MSQ unless I feel like it.

I think some people did Toto-Rak so many times that their brain uncounsciously forget it

Yes, you have to learn where and when to use it.

It's not rocket science. "Hm, this is an AoE skill. Okay, I will use it when there is damage to the party."

I'm not forgetting Toto-Rak, though. I've done it a lot recently and have had no need to use Medica.

[Nestama]

That said, I do not want a jump potion and have never asked for one. All I want is to be able to do dungeons and zones when I'm at the appropriate level without having to drag through the MSQ unless I feel like it.

This is also a very reasonable response. Just let people who don't really care about the story be allowed to do content when they're the right level/ilevel (even the dungeons that would usually require you to do the story to unlock them). Including end-game content that has nothing to do with the Main Story.

This way, even raiders who like the story, but are pressured by their static to 'hurry up' to the hardcore raid, can always go back and do they story quests when their static isn't raiding that day/hour.