What if, healers are not healers?

[Kabooa]

Healers heal.

That's why a majority of their abilities have to deal with healing. They have the ability to do damage because the party questing style hasn't been in fashion for nearly a decade.

This is why tanks can do damage.

However, calling a tank a DPS without burst potential is blatantly wrong. DPS classes deal -high sustained damage per second-. This is not 'burst' damage. Burst damage is the phase where your cooldowns are popped to get the most overlapping effect from multipliers. (Black Mage Eno/LEylines/Raging, Summoner Dread/Raging/Pet buffs, Dragoons -all the cooldowns-, potions).

Tank damage is actually pretty lackluster, but they have phases of high damage output thanks to ridiculously good cooldowns with higher than average uptime. Tanks deal low sustained damage, but have high burst phases with shorter spans between them. This averages out to mediocre damage per second -but heavily favors short phase encounters-. Remember when 'omg warrior was op' in 3.0? The encounters were Ravana and Bismarck. Encounters with short windows of high vulnerability, perfectly suited to the Berserk / Fell Cleave style.

[DotsNnots]

However, calling a tank a DPS without burst potential is blatantly wrong.

The point wasn't to claim tanks can't burst, but rather to identify the skills that make a tank a tank (defensive cool downs, aggro gathering), versus a DPS. A tank's offensive cooldowns aren't what makes the a "tank" they're just extra damage to help them control the theater of battle. You could argue a healer's offensive skills help them control the battle as well.

Also this:

They have the ability to do damage because the party questing style hasn't been in fashion for nearly a decade.

Is based on what, exactly? I wrote a giant wall of text to hypothesize that maybe they *don't* just have the ability to do damage for soloing quests? That the basic game functions all point to a same foundation that grows outward to develop the roles, and then the class, system. That nothing actually signifies that healers are meant to purely heal in this game, other than a few players opinions as to otherwise?

Please base your argument in the functions of this game, not just what's "in style" for other games. And I have addressed the statement that balance isn't centered around healer DPS, so if your rebuke is going to include this point, please make sure to actually respond to the statement. It's not a discussion if broad ambiguous claims are made.

[Feyona]

What do you mean, same damage dealing potential? White Mage and Astrologian both contribute as much as, or more than Scholar, through heavy AoE damage and cards.

I really don't understand what you mean.

Scholars more than any other healing class are always expected to be the dps/healer. I am told that this is not because the other two classes are better healers, but because scholar has better damage dealing potential because of the dots left on target while the pet can heal. what other reasons why scholar is never considered a main healerI this may be because the heals themselves appear weak, combined with shied though it makes their healing just as effective as wmg.With indom/emergeny tactic/succur sch can do big aoes potentially every 15 sec on top of the normal non cd heals.Not to mention the other damage reducing buffslike adlo spread, eye for an eye and sacred soil. Just am told scholar is better dps. Its not my fault reddit thinks so.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Tank DPS nerf sorta invalidates this thread, IMHO. Tanks aren't damage dealing classes, regardless of anything else. By now I'm just patiently waiting for the inevitable healer deeps nerf.

[Rongway]

Tank DPS nerf sorta invalidates this thread

It was a DPS boost for any tank who was already gearing VIT as intended.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

It was a DPS boost for any tank who was already gearing VIT as intended.

Any competent tank was using strength accessories and surviving just fine, no different than the healers that spend the majority of the time in cleric stance dpsing. It was a direct dps nerf no matter how you slice it with the change to the tank formula. Regardless of how you want to slice it, any loss of attack power is still a nerf.

[DotsNnots]

but because scholar has better damage dealing potential because of the dots left on target while the pet can heal. what other reasons why scholar is never considered a main healerI this may be because the heals themselves appear weak, combined with shied though it makes their healing just as effective as wmg.

This is entirely my personal opinion, but I think a lot of this expectation is grounded in 2.0 compositions. With a WHM and a SCH it was easier for the SCH to let the fairy provide the supporting heals while the sch DPS's, because hey, there's an AI doing the healing for you. There wasn't a third healer dynamic to make the composition be reevaluated. Both SCH's and WHM's have really useful tools in their kit, however, and I absolutely agree you could swap the identities, have the WHM be the "supporting/off" heals and the scholar "main" it, but people see the AI and go, well, AI.

That said (again my opinion) I've always felt like the extra stance dancing a WHM has to do to keep regens up (if you consider the HoT's the supporting heals in the same role as the fairy for a WHM/AST comp), is offset a bit by the potency of a WHM's attacks. A white mage can do more damage than any of the other healers if they have 100% up time on cleric stance (not counting mp limitations). But because they have to stance dance more often to provide the supporting heals (regen, medica 2, asylum, etc), because there's no AI, their damage could potentially average out to be the same as a scholar who doesn't have to drop CS as much, but has less potency.

Astro's are caught in this place where when they're in diurnal and thus paired with a SCH, they fall into the same mold left by the WHM composition from 2.0 (despite having a 5% GCD speed increase). And when they're in nocturnal with a WHM, they lose their supporting heal options, and gain a healing potency, that also ends up pegging them as the more "main" healer. It also helps that their big DoT is up longer, so it doesn't have to be refreshed as often.

[StrategistShiroe]

This is literally a game using the Holy Trinity Class/job archetype. You fall into X or Y category as designed with the queues.
It is literally programmed that you are X or Y category since you want to speak in terms of the functions of this game. The code, the most base form states "variable JOB = variable CLASSIFICATION". If you didn't queue as X or Y then you wouldn't be considered X or Y by the very system splitting people up for instances. PLD can't queue as DPS, DRG can't queue as healer, AST can't queue as tank. just because content is focused on healer DPS means we should be denied it outright.
Does it suck sometimes? Sure. Is it probably outdated for today's day & age? Sure.

However if we didn;t have these classification you could easily end up with 8 Monks or 3 PLD, 2 MCH, 1 DRK, 1 SMN and 1 BLM running Alex or Weeping City. Good luck surviving with your heals from BLM and SMN that aren't likely even cross-classed/on their hotbar. We have the archetypes for a valid programming reason and to prevent player outrage as such groups being composed. Look at the MOBAs who lack an archetype system. Enjoy your 5 squishy DPS that need end game builds getting wrecked early. Even DotA has roles listed on characters even if it's a soft version of the system It is still THERE for people to use.

Have you ever seen a MMO where a healer has 0 DPS skills? No because we need to level and to do that we need to kill things. To kill things we need damage. If said kit got tossed aside once you hit level cap because you are no longer needed to kill things to level there wouldn't be progression for healers in future content with level cap increases. We would fall stagnant unable to keep people healed in the harder hitting content simply because we physically CAN'T climb the ladder everyone else is using. It would be like you graduating as a Doctor only to reach the hospital and have them take all your surgery tools away. "Oh you reached the end you don't need these anymore." No. You need said tools to do your job. That is why everyone has a bit of everything; for the gameplay as a whole and not just Dungeons or Raids or MSQ solo.

Can you picture playing a WHM but sitting there just using Stone 1 against a level 60 MSQ enemy? Or perhaps as an AST sitting there giving NPCs cards and heals until THEY finished your MSQ Duty? I bet you wouldn't touch that class then. Going to bare bones builds is asking for a bad time. Every single option every job has is an option to use. Healers got the OPTION to DPS just like Tanks got the OPTION to use Defensive CDs or self-heal. Really if you DO use that option it just makes you more flexible with your job as a whole within more content available. In the end it is always the player's CHOICE to do extra.

TL;DR = Holy Trinity Archetype if there for a valid reason unless you want even worse party comps than we have now in EVERY piece of content.

[Normalizer]

Scholars more than any other healing class are always expected to be the dps/healer. I am told that this is not because the other two classes are better healers, but because scholar has better damage dealing potential because of the dots left on target while the pet can heal...

I regrettably have to inform you that among all healers SCH has the worst DPS potency spells. Even Aero from WHM which they don't even use it all time (only with combine with fluid aura or when have to move or oGCD) becomes a valuable Dot for SCH which the SCH should keep it on boss near 100% uptime together with all their other DOTs. Beside even when you go as WHM/AST the main healer should dps too. It's wrong to think only the off-heal have to dps. Two healer should balance their heal/dps time.

The reason why people tell you SCH is a dps healer, is not because of their "better" dps tool or weaker heal (have SCH ever considered weak? ), but because SCH is BUILT for dps while healing/mitigating/supporting. You as SCH:
- have more potential instant heal skills than whm/ast: Lustrate/Indom (which you can turn off cleric and cast them immediately),
- can cast embrace/whispering down and other pet skills while in cleric,
- can put out sacred soil, virus, E4E, all while in cleric.
Those reasons make it perfectly for SCH to stay in cleric and doing most of their jobs. Heck, only physick, adlo, succor require you to stay out of cleric stance to cast them. Then tell me, why do you want to stay out of cleric stance all the time on SCH while more than half of your "healing" kit do not require you to?

If you think SCH should heal only and stay away from cleric cause you have so many amazing spells like you listed, then, you are playing sch wrong :|

[Kabooa]

Is based on what, exactly?

Warhammer
Aion
Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2
Every "Free Action MMORPG" (In the veins of Tera)
SWToR
Our very favorite comparison of World of Warcraft.

All examples over the past 10 years of games that have moved away from the FF11 / Everquest initial style of 'You need a party to do everything.'

In every example, even if the reasoning is different, the "healers" and "tanks" of the game were more than capable of dealing relevant damage, but clearly not the best. I could go through every example and tell you why, but frankly I don't need to.

Healers in FF14 are healers. You can classify them as 'support' if -you- want, but then they're pretty piss poor 'support' classes instead of adequate healing classes.

Support doesn't mean "Heals the party and does other things."

Support tends to refer to utilities that make up for the fact the person isn't bringing raw damage, raw tanking capability, or raw healing capability. It's why Bard in FF14 2.x got shafted via the Armory nerfs, because they weren't supposed to be able to do comparable damage while being 100% mobile and bringing the Bard Songs. The bard was considered the 'support class' because it brought some pretty overpowering, if simple, utility you couldn't get from anywhere else.

The White Mage is not a support class. The white mage is bringing almost entirely a healing kit, having a heal of almost every variety, debuff removals, and a heavily nerfed from 2.x damage shield. Their damaging spells are fairly simple, and while they can be used to deal relevant damage, I'd hardly say people look at their party compositions and go "Shit, we don't have a white mage, we'll never make the dps check."

The Scholar is not a support class. The Scholar, being shackled to a baseline DPS class, is a limited healing class focusing on damage prevention while capable of doing good sustained damage for single target and AoE.

The Astrologian is the closest of the three current healers to being a support class, but is heavily hampered in that role through random chance as well as the fact that its options are limited to raw number boosts, and not something unique. In almost every case, those cards get relegated into 'damage boost'. Considering almost every job brings something that boosts the party's damage, I guess that makes erebody a support.

In the 4 party style FF14 is presenting, an actual 'Support' class wouldn't be all that useful. In the 8 party system, it's still questionable, but more likely. The best you can hope for in these small party systems in a game where most of the time you play solo are classes like Astrologian, Bard, or Machinist. Classes that have 'support lite' capability while primarily being a member of the Holy Trinity .

The Holy Trinity remains such because its far easier to keep things in line with each other, even if its not as fascinating as the Web-of-Niches.