Reset Item Levels in 4.0?

[Zojha]

Because horizontal progression requires less 'updates'/'patches' and is more longer lasting than 'vertical progression'

That's not true - imagine for just a moment you could buy each of those horizontal items on a vendor. How long lasting is that? Not very.
Now imagine every single 5 iLvL upgrade at endgame would require an effort akin to the Anima - the whole current questline, not just one step. How often do you need to update the iLvL?

What decides how often you need to update is how easy gear/experience is to acquire - in both systems.

I personally can't say I like the term "Horizontal progression" in the first place - Progression is a one way street. You progress, you regress or you don't move at all. And the thing that keeps things "lasting" is called "stagnation". Our job levels have lasted us for way over a year now, precisely because there's no progression. You can progress on a "new" job, but the old one doesn't progress. That is what keeps the level "relevant", very much like the gear in FFXI. Horizontal progression would better be called "Mass Progression" or something akin IMO.

[Mithrahn]

That's not true - imagine for just a moment you could buy each of those horizontal items on a vendor. How long lasting is that? Not very.
Now imagine every single 5 iLvL upgrade at endgame would require an effort akin to the Anima - the whole current questline, not just one step. How often do you need to update the iLvL?

What decides how often you need to update is how easy gear/experience is to acquire - in both systems.

I personally can't say I like the term "Horizontal progression" in the first place - Progression is a one way street. You progress, you regress or you don't move at all. And the thing that keeps things "lasting" is called "stagnation". Our job levels have lasted us for way over a year now, precisely because there's no progression. You can progress on a "new" job, but the old one doesn't progress. That is what keeps the level "relevant", very much like the gear in FFXI. Horizontal progression would better be called "Mass Progression" or something akin IMO.

What you're talking about is Vertical Progression.
Have you played Guild Wars? I'm not talking about the mess that was Guild Wars 2, but Guild Wars.

Numbers are just numbers at the end of the day and shouldn't impact the game play what so ever.

I mean doesn't the King Behemoth have less HP then is lesser part Behemoth in the outer world? why? because one is suited for 24 man content the other a whole server.

It's just numbers, it shouldn't bother you so much. I don't care if I find a small pig with a billon trillion zillon HP, it's a RPG game numbers are the core of it.

If high numbers displease you stay away from Disgeae, that game is insane for big numbers



I don't even know what those numbers are!

You haven't seen the boss with a trillion hp! From Makai Ichiban Kan.

[Beckett]

I agree that it's a little silly that the ilevels are so much higher than our actual levels, but I don't think it's so silly that it requires any dev attention. If we've broken ilevel 1,000 before we've hit player level 100, then it might be time to adjust the ilevels. For the time being, I think it's fine.

[AlphaFox]

I will admit when it comes to giant numbers that is a tad insane to me and usually turns me away, granted more so when your level 1 and doing 1000s of damage per strike. At the moment we seem to be on a good curve I feel for the time being. Long as we don't suddenly end up with 500k+ health like the WoW example or so I am fine with the current trend.

[bardaboo]

How about we switch to glamour damage. The prettier your character and rarer your glamour gear the more damage you do.

[Khalithar]

How about we switch to glamour damage. The prettier your character and rarer your glamour gear the more damage you do.

How about we make it more realistic? The less clothing/armor you have on the more damage you take.

[Zojha]

What you're talking about is Vertical Progression.

No, I'm talking about progression - Vertical and Horizontal are only buzzwords used by people who don't understand the concept behind progression.
Stats are numbers used in a mathematical calculation of the computer. Logically, they can only be bigger, lower or equal to other numbers. And progression is the optimization of those numbers in regards to a certain problem.

For example, you want to increase your DPS. Progression means your DPS increases. Regression means your DPS lowers. Stagnation means your DPS stays the same. You can't progress sideways or "horizontally", that's stagnation, not progress.
What you can do is to change your optimization problem: Instead of increasing your DPS, you want to increase your mitigation. Again however, you can only mitigate more, less or the same.

The same principle applies to any stat, not just those I used in the example. If a singular skill scales of Agi, Int and Sausages and you can switch gear freely, you want that combination of Agi, Int and Sausages macro'd to that skill that delivers the highest output for that skill. If the output increases, that's progression, if it decreases, that's regression and again, if it stays the same it's stagnation. You might have a different skill that scales off Shoe Size instead, but again, optimizing the output for that one will be "vertical". Similarly, changing your loadout for CC can only yield more, less or the same effectiveness at controlling the enemy.

That's just how progression works. But I'm gonna leave it at that, for one, because this is pretty off-topic, for another, because I don't think anyone that doesn't understand it by now will be able to do so in another 10 pages of repetition and elaboration.

[Radacci]

no i want to auto-attack for 99999 damage, like i can in any FF game after FFX?

[Ksenia]

no i want to auto-attack for 99999 damage, like i can in any FF game after FFX?

I predict FF14 combat to go the way of crafting/ Gathering so you might see something along this line but it will be a 'wild swing' proc with a 60% success rate. So using FF14 RnG you will miss the other 9 times out of 10.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

ship

Had it worked, horizontal progression wouldn't be largely seen as a complimentary spice compared to its counterpart. Gear lasting years isn't necessarily an example of success, especially given its incredibly situational usage. The whole reason content like that has been downplayed over the years is people typically dislike it.

In virtually all MMOs nowadays there isn't an "incorrect" sub-job, hence my original point. FFXI had combinations that people flat out refused to party with due to their inferiority. Monk may lack the utility of Dragoon or Ninja in FFXIV, however you will rarely see it outright excluded. Our only closest example was Paladin pre-3.2, yet even it found some love. That just wouldn't have been in the case in FFXI. Gear did suffer a similar issue because you were expected to have grind out certain content if it were deemed better. Compare that to the more straight forward methods you see in FFXIV, WoW and etc.

FFXI existed at a period where MMOs scarcely had an audience and Square didn't given a hoot over balancing jobs. You simply cannot get away with that now. At least not if you expect to make money. And as someone else mentioned, it isn't coincidental the strictly vertical focused WoW utterly eclipsed FFXI despite releasing almost two years later.

Short-term = Workload multiplied
Long-term = Workload lessened.
Because horizontal progression requires less 'updates'/'patches' and is more longer lasting than 'vertical progression'
But I shouldn't be surprised anyway, people nowadays are very short-sighted and only think short term.

Actually, no. That workload remains multiplied because any new job or tweak to abilities must be balanced alongside the several hundred potential effects people can choose from. Applied to gear, this becomes even worse since without vertical progression, you need constantly new ways to incentive content.

Or perhaps people simply aren't interested in horizontal progression? Just because you happen to like it, doesn't mean everyone else does.