Main Scenario Restriction Bloodstorm - Very Very Bad idea.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I don't care what other people find interesting. As you don't seem to care what others find interesting. But they can play the game just like everyone else, and do the interesting and uninteresting things equally. Slapping a new person into a new expansion won't change much if they're not interested in half of the game. They will still get bored. Why? Because they never had the required attention span to get through the game in the first place.

Where did I say that? Only you have insisted that your preferred way of playing the game is only way it should be played. Is that right? You should go ask Mizzteq why she hasn't unsubbed then because she's admitted to skipping cutscenes yet not only has she stay subbed for probably longer than you or I, she makes guides for the whole game. Apparently, she hasn't gotten bored. Shock horror, just because people aren't interested in the story doesn't mean they'll necessarily quit the game.

[TarynH]

Where did I say that? Only you have insisted that your preferred way of playing the game is only way it should be played. Is that right? You should go ask Mizzteq why she hasn't unsubbed then because she's admitted to skipping cutscenes yet not only has she stay subbed for probably longer than you or I, she makes guides for the whole game. Apparently, she hasn't gotten bored. Shock horror, just because people aren't interested in the story doesn't mean they'll necessarily quit the game.

You imply it with every post on this thread. You persist with the same argument. "It should not matter to others if someone wants to skip the story." Over and over you have said this. Anyone who mentions the story, you deliberately go out of your way to shove this argument in their face. Saying the story doesn't matter, and that end-game and dungeons are the real content.

Maybe to you. But the story does matter to those other people, or they wouldn't be saying it. Honestly, I don't care if you skip the story; legitimately. I care about the integrity of the game, and have said this. A pay-to-win/skip system will absolutely destroy the integrity of the game.

I have been subbed from day 1 of the PS4 release, and have stayed subbed. I have done ARR story twice. First on Sargatanas, and restarted on Jenova. The reason? No housing at the time. Couldn't transfer either. I'm currently taking an alt. through the story, and cataloging it for a blog. I find nearly every aspect of the game interesting, and to this point have always found a way to occupy my time. My "preferred" way of playing the game, is playing the game how it is intended, from level one. You seem to think this way is wrong, despite hundreds of thousands playing through it with no problem. Some multiple times. Maybe it has too much bulk, but playing the game from level 1 is how this game was intended to be played. What a harsh thing to say to someone new... play the game from the start.

You reference one roleplayer you know, as being the end all of this discussion. Why does it matter so much that a roleplayer skips ahead? Why should it concern the entire player base that one person out of millions, wants to go play their non-WoL role in the new city, but doesn't want to play the "boring" story? Do I care that they're there? No. Do I care if they change the fundamental core of a game I enjoy for this small minority? Yes.

Every player gets bored of the game at some point. They take a break. What they don't do is come back and demand that they are caught up with everything they missed while on the break. Instead, they bust their ass to catch up, if it is that important to them.

Why should a new player have an advantage over someone that busted their ass to get through the MSQ? You keep saying that it is not an "advantage," but then bring up the Chinese version. Did you also know that with the Chinese version they can pay to level up their jobs? They get gil and other items as well. Do you not see something fundamentally wrong with this type of system?

Like I said, even just one single little thing (a jumping potion) can set a precedent for the cash shop. What stops it from turning into the Chinese pay-to-win model?

[KitingGenbu]

...

Retainers aren't p2w?

Someone brought up an argument on specializations and how people could just use jump potions to have more toons with them. But can't you just level all 8 of your retainers and send them on ventures to have more chances of getting stuff than someone else? Honestly, this point holds weight at the very start of an expansion when things are at their highest. Yet, you'll see a whole bunch of posts pertaining to how retainers aren't p2w and you have to level each one and gear etc etc. Fact remains, its a method that people can buy which increases advancement over others in some form, which I'm pretty sure what most people consider to be p2w.

[TarynH]

Retainers aren't p2w?

Someone brought up an argument on specializations and how people could just use jump potions to have more toons with them. But can't you just level all 8 of your retainers and send them on ventures to have more chances of getting stuff than someone else? Honestly, this point holds weight at the very start of an expansion when things are at their highest. Yet, you'll see a whole bunch of posts pertaining to how retainers aren't p2w and you have to level each one and gear etc etc. Fact remains, its a method that people can buy which increases advancement over others in some form, which I'm pretty sure what most people consider to be p2w.

They've handled the retainer system with rather fair balance. In that the retainers cannot get you everything in the game. For the entirety of 2.0-2.55 they could not gather items from unspoiled nodes. These were later added after or during 3.0's launch. They currently cannot bring you the highest items (folklore, etc.) from HW. And a single retainer cannot bring back more than what the actual player could. In fact, it is sometimes more productive to gather the majority of the items yourself. I'm sure most people could bring back more than 20-30 iron ores in an hour.

I wouldn't necessarily call it paying to "win" as they don't "advance" the player in any certain terms. They can provide you with easily gathered materials, but it's still on the player to advance their character. They are more of a convenience. And like you said, you have to gather whatever they gather first, in order for them to unlock it. You also have to level them, and gear them. So they can't exceed what your own personal character can do yourself. The player is literally investing the time to make the retainers advantageous, not the other way around. The only thing I will admit they can advance, is your pocketbook. But then, I've seen it mentioned countless times that gil doesn't matter in this game. :P

I consider pay-to-win as something that advances your character past/thru content. Paying to level a character to 50 or 60. Paying to jump past story/dungeon content. Paying for gear that increases ilvl. Retainers cannot advance you in this way. They can only bring you things you have already succeeded in obtaining yourself.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You imply it with every post on this thread. You persist with the same argument. "It should not matter to others if someone wants to skip the story." Over and over you have said this. Anyone who mentions the story, you deliberately go out of your way to shove this argument in their face. Saying the story doesn't matter, and that end-game and dungeons are the real content.

Maybe to you. But the story does matter to those other people, or they wouldn't be saying it. Honestly, I don't care if you skip the story; legitimately. I care about the integrity of the game, and have said this. A pay-to-win/skip system will absolutely destroy the integrity of the game....

Why. Why does it matter to you what other people do? That has been my only argument-- one you have continuously failed to address. I, actually, dutifully read and watch every scene because I do happen to enjoy the story. But if someone else wants to skip ahead, I couldn't care less. Their decision to skip the story, be it through pressing esc or buying an expensive cash shop matters not to my, personal, enjoyment of the game. They don't impact me nor my experiences. I am not "shoving" my opinions. This is a discussion forum. I'm merely offering an opposing view you simply dislike. Welcome to Internet. People are going to disagree with your preferences. That doesn't instantly make your position absolute.

You are essentially taking a personal offense because other people may opt to play the game differently. How does someone skipping ahead "destroy the integrity of the game"? You'll never even know they did unless they tell you. Regardless, you do realize Square Enix is a business-- with investors who don't give a hoot about anything beyond profit.

I don't think its wrong nor have I ever stated as much. I simply don't care if someone else doesn't want to start at level one and slog through 500 quests. What I do care about is accessibility because an MMO without a constant influx of new players will inevitably decline in subs. What happens after Stormblood or the expansion thereafter. Are people expected to then slog through even more content they may not be interested in; that is upwards of nearly a decade old? They won't. And once that starts to happen, Square Enix isn't simply going to shrug off financial loss. No, they'll push that back onto us via exclusive cash shop content.

Thousands have also quit. A rather comprehensive, albeit unofficial analysis, put FFXIV's active character total at roughly 800,000 back in January. That number has dropped to 500,000 as of August.

You reference one roleplayer you know, as being the end all of this discussion. Why does it matter so much that a roleplayer skips ahead? Why should it concern the entire player base that one person out of millions, wants to go play their non-WoL role in the new city, but doesn't want to play the "boring" story? Do I care that they're there? No. Do I care if they change the fundamental core of a game I enjoy for this small minority? Yes.

Please stop putting words in my mouth. I referenced her as simply an example. I never once said she represented anything more than that. I've already cited why. You need new players. You aren't accounting for those "millions" being existing players who, therefore, won't feel the same bloat as someone new faced with a mountain of quests they aren't interested in. I've repeatedly cited WoW-- specially asking if the same number of people would have purchased Legion if they were told "by the way, you have fifteen years worth of old content to go before we let you play Legion."

MMOs do not function the same as games in other genres. Unlike any other Final Fantasy, FFXIV's quest number will only become larger as the years trickle by. It's the equivalent of say, BioWare forcing people to have completed save file of Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 before they can play Mass Effect 3.

Some people want to treat each expansion like a brand new game.

Why should a new player have an advantage over someone that busted their ass to get through the MSQ? You keep saying that it is not an "advantage," but then bring up the Chinese version. Did you also know that with the Chinese version they can pay to level up their jobs? They get gil and other items as well. Do you not see something fundamentally wrong with this type of system?

Because it isn't one. Gear resets faster than my cats run after seeing their own shadow. Come Stormblood, we will all be put on the exact same playing field. You, I, someone named Deliverance not Digiorno, will all basically be reset. Those of us who have scripture and melded crafting gear would actually have an advantage still, seeing most of that will last a good few levels into the patch.

Yes, I'm aware. I do not care. If they want to throw several hundred dollars to level jobs. Go right ahead. It doesn't impact me or how I play. Because FFXIV's content necessitates learning the fights, they have no greater advantage. Someone who used a jump potion isn't going to step into Savage and get a World First clear on their first attempt. They won't even have the gear for the first primal.

All the Chinese version does is essentially treat the current expansion (Heavensward) like its the base game. You are given the barest of minimum gear, a little gil and that's it. Meanwhile, I can level up to 50 in a day-- a few if I'm not doing another silly 10+ hour grind. I'll also make more in ten minutes crafting than they were given. And! It didn't cost me any real world money. I wish them well in their "advantage."

Like I said, even just one single little thing (a jumping potion) can set a precedent for the cash shop. What stops it from turning into the Chinese pay-to-win model?

The fact you don't actually win anything? You're placed at the very beginning of Heavensward in baby gear. You just don't have to do A Realm Reborn. That is literally all you get since everything else means nothing. There is no precedent to set because this jump potion only serves that one purpose.

[TarynH]

Why. Why does it matter to you what other people do? That has been my only argument-- one you have continuously failed to address.

And I've given you my reasons. You choose to ignore them... continuously.

Are people expected to then slog through even more content they may not be interested in; that is upwards of nearly a decade old?

A decade old? We're just now coming up on the 2nd expansion, and you're treating FFXIV like it is a dying game. Please share the crystal ball you're gazing at. They haven't even clarified that 4.0 will be the same as 3.0. It's still months away.

Thousands have also quit.

And you can prove that it was all new players faced with a "daunting" story?

I've repeatedly cited WoW-- specially asking if the same number of people would have purchased Legion if they were told "by the way, you have fifteen years worth of old content to go before we let you play Legion."

I never played WoW. I played FFXI though, and it NEVER got a jumping potion. They made it easier to progress, but never tossed a pay-to-win item out there to jump to level 99. It might be a dwindling game, but it is also the best reference for another FF game. FFXIV might take some aspects from WoW, but it is still a FF game at it's core. FF games are held to a higher standard with their story-driven narratives. Something I, along with many others, appreciate, and one the developers have tried to honor.

Let's revisit this topic in 15 years, and I'll see how I feel about the jumping potion then.

MMOs do not function the same as games in other genres. Unlike any other Final Fantasy, FFXIV's quest number will only become larger as the years trickle by. It's the equivalent of say, BioWare forcing people to have completed save file of Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 before they can play Mass Effect 3.

And FFXI was no different. Maybe you didn't have to experience the entire story, but it still kept adding quests as it grew. Still... people played it all from day one. Comparing an MMORPG to a SPRPG is moot. So is equating an expansion to DLC, or a sequel. The simple fact is that an expansion is neither. It is an addition to the existing core game.

Some companies handle it differently than others, and I can accept that. But this game does not, and should not have to fall in line with every MMORPG out on the market. It is still being ranked as the 2nd best MMORPG out there, despite your "sinking ship" scenario. Clearly it is doing something right.

Some people want to treat each expansion like a brand new game.

And I would fault them for that. It is not a brand new game. Neither were the multiple expansions to FFXI. They added more story, but did not change the game into a new IP.

Legion is not considered a new game. You have said it yourself, I believe, that it has 15 years of lore behind it. Where did all that lore come from? Not Legion itself. It came from the 15 years prior to it. (Also, wasn't WoW released in 2004?)

Yes, I'm aware. I do not care. If they want to throw several hundred dollars to level jobs. Go right ahead. It doesn't impact me or how I play.

So you're alright with them throwing several hundred dollars at gil as well?

All the Chinese version does is essentially treat the current expansion (Heavensward) like its the base game.

The Chinese market, and demand on games is vastly different from our own. Not to mention, again, that this is not a new game, and should not be treated as such.

The fact you don't actually win anything? You placed at the very beginning of Heavensward in baby gear. You just don't have to do A Realm Reborn. That is literally all you get since everything else means nothing. There is no precedent to set because this jump potion only serves that one purpose.

You won every single dungeon and fight from level 1-50. You won the privilege of entering Ishgard without a struggle. You won the so-called "baby gear" that is normally farmed, or obtained in other ways. And if we're talking about doing this at the release of Stormblood, you won the privilege of advancing to new content without lifting a finger. (Except the one used to type in your CC information.) And that's all you get...

Why not just sell a potion that unlocks everything? So they can pick and choose the content they want to play. After all, it is their money. Nevermind the thousands/millions paying for the same game, and having to deal with the influx of these day one savants. Who I'm sure watched every video, and read every guide to play to the best of their ability. I mean, it's not like they're lazy and skip content... oh wait!

If they add a jumping potion, I'd like it to come with a few conditions. I'd like that player to have a title that cannot be changed, and an obnoxious symbol by their name. Like a coin, or a dollar sign to carry with them throughout the entire game. I'd like it to be perfectly obvious who these people are, for two reasons.

1. So we know precisely the number of people who "needed" this leg up. (So this conversation never happens again.)
2. So people can decide whether or not they wish to associate with these people.

Sounds fair right?

[Lambdafish]

If they add a jumping potion, I'd like it to come with a few conditions. I'd like that player to have a title that cannot be changed, and an obnoxious symbol by their name. Like a coin, or a dollar sign to carry with them throughout the entire game. I'd like it to be perfectly obvious who these people are, for two reasons.

1. So we know precisely the number of people who "needed" this leg up. (So this conversation never happens again.)
2. So people can decide whether or not they wish to associate with these people.

Sounds fair right?

Also so that I know which players never learned how to play the game and bought their way to endgame, so I can avoid having them in my PF. Jumping potions make sense in WoW, as every new race and class requires the player to essentially start the game again, but in this game you can get your new job on your already existing character, no need for alts.

[Lulu89]

1. So we know precisely the number of people who "needed" this leg up. (So this conversation never happens again.)
2. So people can decide whether or not they wish to associate with these people.

Sounds fair right?

Yep! Bc I'd be one of them ppl saying sry but pass! ^^

[Bourne_Endeavor]

And I've given you my reasons. You choose to ignore them... continuously.

No. I've disagreed with them. There is a difference.

A decade old? We're just now coming up on the 2nd expansion, and you're treating FFXIV like it is a dying game. Please share the crystal ball you're gazing at. They haven't even clarified that 4.0 will be the same as 3.0. It's still months away.

Sigh. You are yet again mischaracterizing what I said. What I specifically outlined is that if this trend continues, the content bloat will only become larger and that it will deter newer players who will instead opt for gears where they aren't gated by hundreds of quests they have no interest in. There is no "crystal ball" here. Publishers have outright acknowledged this as a concern, and many very few sequels in any genre are made where you're required to go through its previous iteration. In fact, FFXIV is the only MMO currently on the market that gates content in this manner.

And you can prove that it was all new players faced with a "daunting" story?

Never said they did. You just cited player numbers that far exceeded what has been analyzed. What we do know is among primary complaints on forums is the lack of accessibility.

I never played WoW. I played FFXI though, and it NEVER got a jumping potion. They made it easier to progress, but never tossed a pay-to-win item out there to jump to level 99. It might be a dwindling game, but it is also the best reference for another FF game. FFXIV might take some aspects from WoW, but it is still a FF game at it's core. FF games are held to a higher standard with their story-driven narratives. Something I, along with many others, appreciate, and one the developers have tried to honor.

FFXI does not gate content behind its story. You are free to explore or participate in its equivalent of raids at your leisure. People who support a jump potion (or have an indifference to its implementation) generally want it because of the aforementioned inaccessibility. Not for leveling, as that doesn't get you anywhere in FFXIV.

And FFXI was no different. Maybe you didn't have to experience the entire story, but it still kept adding quests as it grew. Still... people played it all from day one. Comparing an MMORPG to a SPRPG is moot. So is equating an expansion to DLC, or a sequel. The simple fact is that an expansion is neither. It is an addition to the existing core game.

Except I didn't. I merely applied your insistence players should play the game "as intended" to another game. A direction comparison in the same genre would be WoW. Funny enough, they don't seem to have any of the issues you've insisted would plague FFXIV.

Some companies handle it differently than others, and I can accept that. But this game does not, and should not have to fall in line with every MMORPG out on the market. It is still being ranked as the 2nd best MMORPG out there, despite your "sinking ship" scenario. Clearly it is doing something right.

Based on... your opinion? And I never said now, but in the future. You cannot expect new players to continuously flock to a game where an ever growing mountain awaits them. If you are so gung ho against a jump potion now. What chances in the next expansion?

And I would fault them for that. It is not a brand new game. Neither were the multiple expansions to FFXI. They added more story, but did not change the game into a new IP.

Too bad. Why do you get to decide how they should feel or view this game or its expansions? Once again, FFXI is a non-equivalent because it didn't prevent you from exploring content at your leisure.

Legion is not considered a new game. You have said it yourself, I believe, that it has 15 years of lore behind it. Where did all that lore come from? Not Legion itself. It came from the 15 years prior to it. (Also, wasn't WoW released in 2004?)

And yet I could buy Legion right now and start playing it immediately. All that lore, I can completely ignore if I so choose. Therefore, I can treat Legion like a standalone game because it allows me the choice of playing its content at my personally discretion.

So you're alright with them throwing several hundred dollars at gil as well?

Buying gil and skipping A Realm Reborn are not the same thing.

You won every single dungeon and fight from level 1-50. You won the privilege of entering Ishgard without a struggle. You won the so-called "baby gear" that is normally farmed, or obtained in other ways. And if we're talking about doing this at the release of Stormblood, you won the privilege of advancing to new content without lifting a finger. (Except the one used to type in your CC information.) And that's all you get...

No, you don't actually. Even in the Chinese version, you do not earn achievements. It's literally like you... just skipped A Realm Reborn. And you mean that baby gear the game hands to you for free? Once upon a time, people had to earn the ilvl 90 set. I got it gifted to me without lifting a finger. I suppose that's pay to win too, right? After all, you had to work for it. I didn't.

None of that is winning. Funny enough, I wager most people who would actually purchase a jump potion wouldn't even mind being forced to run all the dungeons/trials. That isn't what those people tend to complain about. It's the story they're forced to skip when it doesn't appealing to them.

Why not just sell a potion that unlocks everything? So they can pick and choose the content they want to play. After all, it is their money. Nevermind the thousands/millions paying for the same game, and having to deal with the influx of these day one savants. Who I'm sure watched every video, and read every guide to play to the best of their ability. I mean, it's not like they're lazy and skip content... oh wait!

Because they aren't synonymous. Allowing someone to skip a bunch of fetch quests and joke dungeons they'll otherwise have a friend unsync them through doesn't impact anything. It just makes what they're already doing faster. Some would, others wouldn't. Kind of like how it is now. Some have mentor status yet have no idea how to properly play their job. Just because someone wants to skip story doesn't mean they aren't interested in the gameplay. Fun fact, a lot of people-- even current subs -- find 1-40 leveling a mindless bore. There's a reason even fans of the game tend to say "it gets so much better at level 50!"

If they add a jumping potion, I'd like it to come with a few conditions. I'd like that player to have a title that cannot be changed, and an obnoxious symbol by their name. Like a coin, or a dollar sign to carry with them throughout the entire game. I'd like it to be perfectly obvious who these people are, for two reasons.

1. So we know precisely the number of people who "needed" this leg up. (So this conversation never happens again.)
2. So people can decide whether or not they wish to associate with these people.

Sounds fair right?

Actually, it sounds like you're being increasingly judgmental because they chose to skip the story and you just want to shame them for it. No different than me calling out a healer for refusing to DPS, a tank who pulls small or a DPS who doesn't use their aoes. All of them are playing in a way I dislike, therefore I should get to shame them. Except in that scenario, I'd be a jerk.

Good players generally don't care how you got to max level. They just want you to be good at the game.

[TarynH]

No. I've disagreed with them. There is a difference.

Then why do you keep saying I've given you no reason? I have to give you a reason for you to disagree with one.

Sigh. You are yet again mischaracterizing what I said.

Not at all. I responded to what you said.

Never said they did.

It was implied.

FFXI does not gate content behind its story. You are free to explore or participate in its equivalent of raids at your leisure.

Wrong. It absolutely does. Most end-game content was/is gated behind the story. Dynamis, Limbus, Sky, Sea were among the major end-game content gated behind the story. Certain other content was gated partially by story. Assaults, Nyzul, unlocking various jobs, Escha, etc.

Except I didn't. I merely applied your insistence players should play the game "as intended" to another game.

Playing a game as intended, has nothing to do with what you said. ME3 is intended (programmed) to be picked up without ME1 or ME2 being played. You can also use a save file from those games to personalize your ME3 game. However, it is intended to stand alone. FFXIV: ARR is intended (programmed) to be played starting at level 1 and proceeding into Heavensward, which is a continuation of the events from ARR. HW is not intended (programmed) to start the character off in Ishgard.

I think it is well-established that you want to skip ARR. I get that. However, when I say that I prefer people to play the game as intended, I mean it in the sense of play it how it's programmed. In other words, I didn't make the rules. Get over it. I'm not forcing anyone to play it any differently than anyone else. In fact, I'm not forcing anyone to play it at all. I simply have the opinion that it should retain it's integrity, and remain as is, possibly with less bloat, but definitely not skip story.

Based on... your opinion?

Based on many review sites that rate MMORPGs. FFXIV is usually right under your baby WoW, which also happens to have about 10 years on it.

Too bad. Why do you get to decide how they should feel or view this game or its expansions?

I don't. I said I fault anyone who views the expansions as stand-alone games. The same as I would fault anyone thinking one chapter out of a book is a stand-alone story.

And yet I could buy Legion right now and start playing it immediately.

Don't tease me.

Buying gil and skipping A Realm Reborn are not the same thing.

Wasn't my question.

No, you don't actually. Even in the Chinese version, you do not earn achievements.

The achievements don't bother me.

None of that is winning. Funny enough, I wager most people who would actually purchase a jump potion wouldn't even mind being forced to run all the dungeons/trials. That isn't what those people tend to complain about. It's the story they're forced to skip when it doesn't appealing to them.

I think they would. One of the major complaints is DF wait times. The story can be spammed through rather quickly. It's the dungeons that slow it down. The story is soloable for the most part, but the dungeons are not, unless you have someone willing to burn through them.

Because they aren't synonymous. Allowing someone to skip a bunch of fetch quests and joke dungeons they'll otherwise have a friend unsync them through doesn't impact anything.

Wait... I thought you said they wouldn't mind doing those dungeons.

Actually, it sounds like you're being increasingly judgmental because they chose to skip the story and you just want to shame them for it. No different than me calling out a healer for refusing to DPS, a tank who pulls small or a DPS who doesn't use their aoes. All of them are playing in a way I dislike, therefore I should get to shame them. Except in that scenario, I'd be a jerk.

Coming from the person becoming increasingly judgmental. What I said was in jest. I've never shamed, or called out someone in game, because I don't like their play style. If a healer doesn't DPS, I don't care. That's usually my job. I'm not that uptight, that I criticize a healer for wanting to heal. I don't secretly parse people, then tell them how worthless they are at the end of a run. (Had a nice person do that after my first A12 run, despite beating it the first attempt.)

You have this assumption that I'm some mean person, that forces people to play my way. All I'm asking is that everyone play the game from the same starting point. That's not really "my" way, but rather the "fair" way, for everyone.