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Thread: The Griffin

  1. #101
    Player PArcher's Avatar
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    Kytre Ashaer
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    (yay being on break, have to be fast )

    I feel like if Gaius is still alive (hoping so), he wouldn't oppose us; we proved to him out might is greater, and that is something he respects.

    I feel like he will come to us to aid us in whatever happens with Ala Mhigo. Maybe not openly, but still (mostly) on our side
    (0)

  2. #102
    Player
    Cilia's Avatar
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    Trpimir Ratyasch
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    Gaius respected us, but he disagreed with the use of our strength. He admitted we were strong, but felt we were wasting it propping up "false gods [and] impotent rulers" instead of seizing power for ourselves.

    Even if he still lives, I can't see how he'd factor into the plot. He can't work with the Garleans anymore, everyone in Eorzea hates him for trying to conquer them twice, and he would have next to no resources left after the fall of the Rogue XIVth. The only thing I could see him helping with is stopping Ilberd the Griffin from going mad with power and doing something incredibly stupid with Omega if/when he gets his hands on it... and if that's the case, why not just form an alliance of convenience with Garlemald itself?

    EDIT
    On the subject of allying with Garlemald...

    ... this is going to sound incredibly crazy, but...

    What if Ilberd the Griffin is what ends up bridging the political divide we have with Garlemald?

    Think about it! Nothing brings people together quite like a common enemy. If Ilberd the Griffin uses the Eyes as batteries for Omega and if Garlemald can't take it down (the damn thing could wrangle slagging Bahamut), it's conceivable they would have to form an alliance with us and work together to win. In doing so they may learn we aren't the barbarians they consider us to be, and we may be able to open up non-hostile cultural exchange with them. Ala Mhigo would be freed either way, and it would pave the way for a more benign entrance to Garlemald.

    ... too idealistic for this game. Nope, they'll just try and blast Omega to smithereens with the Gration only to have it shot out of the sky, and we'll have to clean up their mess and stop another doomsday scenario at the same time. That's much more likely.
    (6)
    Last edited by Cilia; 10-11-2016 at 12:45 PM.
    Trpimir Ratyasch's Way Status (7.3 - End)
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  3. #103
    Player
    RobinMalvin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymoose View Post
    Can it not be a bit of each? Ilberd sets the 3rd on you while saying "There! The sultana's assassins!", which proves he was definitely misleading at least some of them. But the two that escape with him - Yuyuhase and Laurentius - shout "Whatever it takes to survive!" and "I'm no hero!" while you fight them, express no surprise at any of the revelations, and follow Ilberd to "be free" despite the charade clearly being over.
    "The sultana's assassins are here! Crystal Braves, to arms!"
    - Ilberd of the Dull Blade
    I always thought that Ilberd addressed us as Sultana's assassins was just a mockery, but now I'm thinking that's possible that some, if not most of the Braves never knew anything about Lolorito's plot and simply did what they did - trying to capture the Scions, accepting order from Lolorito - because they were ordered to and led to believe that the Scions really were responsible for the 'assassination'. If so, it could yield even more disaster for Ilberd after Lolorito disowned them.

    "I'm no hero-never was and will never be!"
    - Legless Laurentius
    Laurentius... he sounded like a broken man. I'm pulling theory out of hat here but maybe he never really thought what implications his betrayal would bring. The plan, afterall, was to simply get the Scions into custody, after which they'd be cleared of any suspicions. No one would think the Scions would resist like that, to the point most of their members gone MIA, and the Scions - the ones who gave him a second chance - practically disbanded. Maybe the revelation just shocked him and left him broken, so he blindly followed Ilberd. His name back then, Legless could possibly indicate his state of mind.

    "Whatever it takes to survive!"
    - Golden Eye Yuyuhase
    From what little we see from Yuyuhase, it's quite obvious that he's a stereotypical Ul'dahn, always chooses the more profitable side that'll ensures his hide and wealth. His words could just emphasis this believe, his reason why he sided with Lolorito and betrayed the Scions. I doubt he'd choose going behind Lolorito's back for Ilberd unless he saw profit in it, and I doubt there ever was. He's the least likely to join in Ilberd's crusade.

    Unless Ilberd can somehow quell the dissastifaction from the Braves, I still hold doubt Ilberd's possibility being Griffin.
    (3)
    Last edited by RobinMalvin; 10-11-2016 at 04:13 PM.

  4. #104
    Player Theodric's Avatar
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    Matthieu Desrosiers
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    The Griffin being Ilberd works out perfectly though. We have history with Ilberd and we've seen already that he is willing to resort to betrayal and murder in the name of his misguided cause. As it stands he has slipped away - but if he's ever going to be relevant to the plot again then 4.0 is the ideal time to introduce him once more given that it's almost certain that we're going to Ala Mhigo next. From what we can see of Griffin's character model he also has the exact same skin tone and jaw as Ilberd. Which just adds further weight to the theory.

    Furthermore Ilberd doing something very stupid and getting a bunch of innocent Ala Mhigans and Garleans killed would be the perfect way to encourage Garlemald and Eorzea to work together. Or at least certain elements within each faction. If a thousand long year war between Ishgard and Nidhogg's forces can be brought to a close then I see no reason why the escalating tensions between Garlemald and Eorzea can't come to a beneficial close for both sides. Hopefully they do it in such a way as to give us friendly Garleans who aren't just defectors and they put their homeland and people first and foremost even if it means trying to persuade Garlemald's leader figures to be more moderate and diplomatic in any way they can.
    (1)

  5. #105
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    Anonymoose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cilia View Post
    What if Ilberd the Griffin is what ends up bridging the political divide we have with Garlemald?
    This has been something I've been keeping an eye out for - not specifically Ilberd / the Griffin, of course, but that the trip to Ala Mhigo might not, in the end, pit us against Garlemald directly. After all, Yoshida - upon being asked if we'd ever go to Garlemald - said "Eh, 5.0?". Would we get our "Larsa" between now and then? A crossroads of Ilberd and Omega might certainly be bad enough to merit some reconsideration.

    Between "Genocide ... Meh" and "I will bend the eikons to my will, as did Allag", though, I'd prefer something happen on Varis' end, as well. I'm flexible as to whether he gets a character-developing Iceheart Moment ("What have I done!?") or just gets a one-way trip back to the Lifestream. Regula I'd like to avoid thinking about and just be surprised whether he lives or dies in the Warring Triad scenario.

    There was originally a build-up in there that suddenly collapsed into a joke of "What if we kill Ilberd, knock Varis out of power, and making peace through Baelsar!?", but thought of spending further posts defending the vague plausibility of something I even don't believe is a likely outcome in the first place fills me with dread. There are precious, pre-Fan Festival naps on the line!


    Quote Originally Posted by RobinMalvin View Post
    I always thought...
    I wouldn't have been sure, either, honestly. I just tend to give each language a playthrough when it comes to an important scene and they didn't vary much in this case. The general themes are: "Those guilty of regicide deserve nothing less than death! To arms, men!" from Ilberd to the nameless Crystal Braves. "It's this or death, and I've a few tricks left!" from Yuyuhase. "The hero's death was always your thing, anyway!" from Laurentius.

    I more or less agree about the assessment of the other two. Laurentius is a pitiful mixture of high self-regard, low honor, and low courage. He'll sell out allies to get what he "deserves" (whether it be Gridania to the Garleans or the Scions to the Monetarists), kill anyone who might bring that to light, and side with whoever is going to win. Yuyuhase will follow the path of maximum profit, other considerations aside.

    I can't imagine either wouldn't sell Ilberd before choosing to fight for Ala Mhigo. Conversely, I can't imagine many would buy him from them, anyway. Who would bear the optics of not only trusting traitorous Crystal Braves, but making the transaction rather than bringing them to justice, even to catch a bigger fish? It'd have to be a string operation, and no one seems keen to prioritize Ilberd over other rising concerns. Even Lolorito and might just vanish them if they tried.

    Though I actually consider Laurentius to be less likely to join than Yuyuhase. Assuming Ilberd is the Griffin, and assuming the Griffin is the highest bidder for the treacherous Lalafell's time, would he decline? The Resistance isn't like to judge him or turn him over; they're even suffering the presence of the Corpse Brigade. Laurentius, meanwhile, would have to agree to go against the Empire in the name of a nation he doesn't believe for ... coin and Ilberd not letting other people gank him, I guess?

    Of course, there's always Option D: They just disbanded party and went their separate ways without trying to kill each other, lol.
    (2)
    Last edited by Anonymoose; 10-11-2016 at 10:01 PM.
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  6. #106
    Player
    Mieck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymoose View Post
    Of course, there's always Option D: They just disbanded party and went their separate ways without trying to kill each other, lol.
    We've all had duty finder parties where that is the most sensible option.
    (4)

  7. #107
    Player
    Cilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mieck View Post
    We've all had duty finder parties where that is the most sensible option.
    Or: fail Palace of the Dead 41-50 at Edda because someone is too busy watching Luke Cage.
    (0)
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  8. #108
    Player
    RobinMalvin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymoose View Post
    Of course, there's always Option D: They just disbanded party and went their separate ways without trying to kill each other, lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mieck View Post
    We've all had duty finder parties where that is the most sensible option.
    Or he could just ditch the entire party and leave them behind like any good Gladiator...


    Quote Originally Posted by Theodric View Post
    The Griffin being Ilberd works out perfectly though
    From what little we're given about the Griffin, I agree that Ilberd is the most memorable character we know that fits the description. But his circumstances, him being a criminal and possible trouble with the Braves, make me hard to think he could muster another force -the Masks- and rose to prominence in just 2-3 months.

    While the Masks are said to be new addition to Ala Mhigo Resistance, I'm getting a hint that they've been around for quite some time, probably around 2.5-3.0 time. When we met Yda and Papalymo, they said that after the Scions were cleared of suspicions and Raubahn's reinstation as Flame General (mid 3.0), they tried to contact us through a letter, since they've discarded their linkpearls and were involved in what's likely a mission for the Masks. Given the time frame, it's rather unlikely for Ilberd to be Griffin, at least at that time.

    We've seen enough that Ilberd is not the only one who will sacrifice everything for their goals, he's just the most relatable to Ala Mhigo at this point.

    And also, why not just make the Griffin another Ysale-type character, and we'll end up working out with him to stop a bigger threat-Nero and his Omega weapon.
    (0)

  9. #109
    Player
    Cilia's Avatar
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    The first hint we got of the Griffin appearing was in the stinger of 3.1, when he reached for his mask. Yda and Papalymo had said in that same stinger they were going on a mission with the Masks, or something to that effect. There's nothing that says the Griffin had to create the Masks as a group - just that he had to gain influence and leadership within that group. We dispatched Ilberd quite early in 3.0, and the amount of time he was in Lolorito's employ between 2.55 and then is questionable. There was somewhere between 2 weeks and 2 months between 2.55 and 3.0's beginning, and roughly 1-2 months between the beginning of 3.0 to 3.1's ending. Added up, that means there is approximately 1.5 - 4 months between "The Parting Glass" and "As Goes Light, So Goes Darkness." That is plenty of time for Ilberd to slip into the shadows and assume the role of the Griffin.

    Now, 3.2 - 3.4 is a pretty significant amount of time as well. Approximately 0.5 months for 3.2 and a day or so for 3.3 (the major events of 3.3 all happen very close together). However, a significant amount of time passes between Nidhogg's defeat and the ending of 3.3 as the Ishgardian government is reformed - approximately two months. That's another 2.5 months for the Griffin to consolidate power within the Masks.

    All that aside, they could easily just say "As much time as necessary passed." We can give out approximate times, but that's the easiest (and most likely) answer.

    Now, call me crazy if you will, but who says the first wind we got of the Griffin was the first time he was on the scene? Or rather, who says it has to be? The Griffin acts in the shadows through proxies - it's conceivable he and the Masks were around for much longer than their debut in the story, we simply didn't know because of their secretive ways. With his plan to usurp command of the Crystal Braves and work with Lolorito to free Ala Mhigo gone, Ilberd could just slide back into position as the Griffin. This does leave a narrow, very narrow window between Ilberd's flight from Halatali and Raubahn's reinstatement as the Flame General to explain Yda and Papalymo's missive being lost in the mail. Narrow as it may be, it could easily be enough... and there's nothing that says, if this is the case, Ilberd ever had to stop acting as the Masks' leader (proxies, remember?) and fund them with his wages as a mercenary / Crystal Brave ("I ate dirt to make [Ala Mhigo's freedom] happen!"). Apropos of Raubahn's reinstatement, it would have to take a day or two (at least) for news like that to travel, if not longer. (Unless linkpearls are a thing in the Flames, in which case I want to berate my squadron when they [kupo] up a mission all the damn time like a real Drill Sergeant. Clowns!)

    If only we knew exactly when they sent that damned letter...

    The Griffin's secretive MO fully suits Ilberd's circumstances. As a criminal, he needs to remain in the shadows - which is why he uses proxies and is implied to confiscate all outgoing mail. Meffrid in Quarrymill mentions he's heard about the Griffin and some of his men have joined them, but he has not heard back from them. With Yda and Papalymo's mail going missing as well, this can only mean no mail is getting out from any member of the Masks... or worse. Ominous!

    There's missing information, but from what I can piece together and infer there are no contradictions in the timeline and the Griffin's MO fits Ilberd's circumstances. One can even go out on limbs to fill in the missing information, like how the Masks sprang up so suddenly, how they were funded, and how Ilberd became the Griffin and gained influence in the group, and come up with plausible arguments.

    As I am approaching this from an investigative viewpoint here, it is not yet certain that Ilberd is the Griffin. He is the most likely suspect, though, else it's another Ala Mhigan refugee (one we may have met, one we may have not). The Prince, perhaps...?

    Anyway, I'd personally be a little disappointed if the Griffin ends up being another Ysayle. I hate it when things are that predictable, like how Lahabrea's MO did not change much from 2.0 during 3.0. (Step 1: Teach mortals to summon primals. Step 2: ??? Step 3: Chaos!)

    OK, enough of this.

    (0)
    Last edited by Cilia; 10-13-2016 at 03:53 PM.
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  10. #110
    Player
    Bloody's Avatar
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    Late reply, but after being more awake, I take back what I said previously about our little lalafell friend, and agree with Cilia and Moose's assessment (and I think Moose eloquently explained it the best). Some of Moose's adamantitefoil hat theories would make excellent story (are you a novelist by chance?) but also currently seem implausible. I'm hoping that we get some left field surprise for the Griffin, but as Cilia said, overwhelming evidence (but nothing confirmed) points towards Ilberd.

    On the general point, I would like to point out how prophetic this Lore forum can be, and various members have deduced accurately upcoming story points. We shall see if the obvious deduction turns out to be true, or if one of the other theories ends up being way more accurate than first thought.
    (3)
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