Yoshida, The Creator: Savage is the worst tuning ever in an MMO

[Mature]

This raid is by far the most enjoyable of all Alexanders.

It's more welcoming it reminds me of first coil

[Viridiana_Sovari]

You realize you are talking about 5-10% of 1%. So with estimated 6k A8 clears at the time (I know the number is higher now but probably not by much), this would be 300-600 people.

No 5-10% of the community as a whole. You are going to lose more than just the ~2% that was able to clear a8s or close. You are going to lose other raiders who don't find this tier rewarding either if they continue this difficulty b/c they went way too far. If you lose them you lose the communities that they have built as well as a decent chunck of their friends. We have 2 different raid difficulties and a tier that is even easier than FCoB was. We help generate hype for the game, we influence the economy more than anybody else. Losing us also means losing a lot of crafters because they either aren't selling nearly as much stuff on the market board, or aren't a part of an FC and feeling like they are contributing meaningfully to a community anymore. Our raiding FC has a lot of members who are here because they don't have the time to raid but want to be able to jump in with other players who know their jobs to do Ex Primals or speed run dungeons. We are also subbed year round, as are our entire communities, where a lot of people resub to try out the new dungeons and primals and then turn around and unsub for another 3 to 6 months. If you are truly worried about catering to the majority of people than lets just make leveling dungeons only seeing as how at any given time only 35-50% of the currently subscribed NA market has at least one max level character and up to date with the MSQ months after it is released. You would not only lose a substantial part of the player base who is subbed year round. It isn't and simple as losing the 1-2% that can clear the raid tier as you make it out to be.

[Aquaslash]

Losing us also means losing a lot of crafters because they either aren't selling nearly as much stuff on the market board

Except the most expensive items are always glamour items. The mat from Bis EX sells for upwards of 4 million gil on my server. How many raiders are gonna take Bismark weapons into a fight? The real loss would be that half of you are cats and lizards and buy all the silly skimpy clothes I'd make.

Of course, being cats and lizards, for every one of you that quits, 7 others appear in you place. Like damn hydras, the lot of you.

[Sparktacus]

No 5-10% of the community as a whole. You are going to lose more than just the ~2% that was able to clear a8s or close. You are going to lose other raiders who don't find this tier rewarding either if they continue this difficulty b/c they went way too far. If you lose them you lose the communities that they have built as well as a decent chunck of their friends. We have 2 different raid difficulties and a tier that is even easier than FCoB was.

We help generate hype for the game, we influence the economy more than anybody else. Losing us also means losing a lot of crafters because they either aren't selling nearly as much stuff on the market board, or aren't a part of an FC and feeling like they are contributing meaningfully to a community anymore. Our raiding FC has a lot of members who are here because they don't have the time to raid but want to be able to jump in with other players who know their jobs to do Ex Primals or speed run dungeons. We are also subbed year round, as are our entire communities, where a lot of people resub to try out the new dungeons and primals and then turn around and unsub for another 3 to 6 months. If you are truly worried about catering to the majority of people than lets just make leveling dungeons only seeing as how at any given time only 35-50% of the currently subscribed NA market has at least one max level character and up to date with the MSQ months after it is released. You would not only lose a substantial part of the player base who is subbed year round. It isn't and simple as losing the 1-2% that can clear the raid tier as you make it out to be.

I don't disagree with anything you say about what it means to lose the raiding community, however much of that was lost with Gordias and will most likely never recover. What remains is the 1% that was able to beat A8S. Many groups could only pass A5 and A6 and that was all they had for 6 months which drove even more people away. What remains is that 1% and lower difficulty gives many lost teams hopes to rebuild again.

I am not advocating one is right or one is wrong, as I said earlier we really need to see clear data and feedback a bit further out, perhaps in two months. If someone's blind arthritic grandmother is beating A12S one handed, then yes we have problems.

[Viridiana_Sovari]

No they're not.

Sorry but you are kind of wrong here. Gearing is a necessary part of the game. And gating people out of a11s and a12s would have pissed the community off to no end. I agree with it in raid finder, but a preformed group of 8 should and can go in at any ilvl they want. If they really wanted to they could walk into a12s with i180, the game won't stop them although they'll be one shotted. Now, a11s and a12s should be tuned for i260 gear, that I agree with. But right now it feels like it is tuned for maybe i245 for a11s and i250 for a12s. Hell a9s feels like it is tuned for i230 or something. DPS checks should exist. Playing your job correctly is a huge part of the end game. They just shouldn't be as tight as Gordias was, but if you don't have dps checks then why even try and min max. Midas had dps checks, they just weren't extremely tight unless you were progressing in there day 1. Gear is there to make things easier over time so that it slowly compensates for lack of player skill in worse groups. Damage going out to the raid and use of raid CDs is a heal check, boss positioning and proper CD usage to survive mechanics are tank checks. If you don't give dps a then you are giving a free pass to any jane doe who can dance. Just handling mechanics becomes trivial if you aren't also worried about topping the raid off during it and getting heals in where you can to survive the next big hit or trying to maximize your dps during a phase.

[Aquaslash]

Sorry but you are kind of wrong here.

Actually I'm right and you literally just proved it.

Gearing is a necessary part of the game. And gating people out of a11s and a12s would have pissed the community off to no end.

I think these boards are enough proof that the community will never be happy with any choice that's made. Gear lockouts are a pretty common practice, what makes you deserve to be a special snowflake?

Now, a11s and a12s should be tuned for i260 gear, that I agree with. But right now it feels like it is tuned for maybe i245 for a11s and i250 for a12s. Hell a9s feels like it is tuned for i230 or something. DPS checks should exist. Playing your job correctly is a huge part of the end game. They just shouldn't be as tight as Gordias was, but if you don't have dps checks then why even try and min max. Midas had dps checks, they just weren't extremely tight unless you were progressing in there day 1. Gear is there to make things easier over time so that it slowly compensates for lack of player skill in worse groups. Damage going out to the raid and use of raid CDs is a heal check, boss positioning and proper CD usage to survive mechanics are tank checks. If you don't give dps a then you are giving a free pass to any jane doe who can dance. Just handling mechanics becomes trivial if you aren't also worried about topping the raid off during it and getting heals in where you can to survive the next big hit or trying to maximize your dps during a phase.

DPS checks and gear checks are similar, but different things. A DPS check would ideally be based on the expected performance of players at min level. If they have enough skill, then they can push out the DPS at the minimum gear level to pass the check and win the game. If they don't have the skill, then they can compensate by applying gear until they basically brute force their way to victory. This is what real difficulty is. This is what you should want if you are truly seeking challenge because it is a true test of your skill. I personally think it's far more rewarding to be able to say I was skilled enough to beat content on the lowest gear setting, then if I had to go in with full tome or raid gear. At that point, the gear becomes a crutch and I remain a scrub.

What this ultimately means is that in a skill based setting, nothing could have changed and Creator would have still died the way it did because the truly skilled players should have demonstrated their skill by clearing the DPS checks and solving the mechanics. To ask for a higher gear requirement means to either gate people out of the content until they meet the gear level, or to make the content mathematically impossible to clear at the current gear levels, which is artificial difficulty and what made Gordias terrible.
I think we're ultimately in agreement, but we have different ideals about how to get to the end path

[Viridiana_Sovari]

I don't disagree with anything you say about what it means to lose the raiding community, however much of that was lost with Gordias and will most likely never recover. What remains is the 1% that was able to beat A8S. Many groups could only pass A5 and A6 and that was all they had for 6 months which drove even more people away. What remains is that 1% and lower difficulty gives many lost teams hopes to rebuild again.

That is a problem of not having more bosses so that they can smooth the difficulty curve. 6 to 8 bosses per tier really needs to happen. I personally think 2 primals that drop savage raid level right side gear on a weekly lockout (weapons could be shifted to normal and made the same ilvl as previous tiers raid weapon) paired up with 6 raid bosses starting at a10s difficulty and progressing to a8s is the way to go, but that is my personal opinion. That gives you 8 bosses in a content patch that are meaningful to do each week. 2 are primals outside the actual raid. 6 are part of the raid tier with a smoother difficulty curve so you don't feel like you are hitting a wall with a massive difficulty spike.Would honestly be a decent middle ground where people didn't feel quite as bad if they didn't finish the whole tier when it was current.

[Sparktacus]

That is a problem of not having more bosses so that they can smooth the difficulty curve.

6 to 8 bosses per tier really needs to happen. I personally think 2 primals that drop savage raid level right side gear on a weekly lockout (weapons could be shifted to normal and made the same ilvl as previous tiers raid weapon) paired up with 6 raid bosses starting at a10s difficulty and progressing to a8s is the way to go, but that is my personal opinion. That gives you 8 bosses in a content patch that are meaningful to do each week. 2 are primals outside the actual raid. 6 are part of the raid tier with a smoother difficulty curve so you don't feel like you are hitting a wall with a massive difficulty spike.Would honestly be a decent middle ground where people didn't feel quite as bad if they didn't finish the whole tier when it was current.

I also agree with everything you just said. Like 100%. I don't believe it is not feasible with their team to add 2 more bosses and just strip away phases from the other ones if they need more manpower.

[Windi]

If they have enough skill, then they can push out the DPS at the minimum gear level to pass the check and win the game. If they don't have the skill, then they can compensate by applying gear until they basically brute force their way to victory. This is what real difficulty is. This is what you should want if you are truly seeking challenge because it is a true test of your skill. I personally think it's far more rewarding to be able to say I was skilled enough to beat content on the lowest gear setting, then if I had to go in with full tome or raid gear. At that point, the gear becomes a crutch and I remain a scrub.

That... actually sounds like a terrible difficulty system. The flaw is that the challenge is completely temporary. It's wholly possible to clear content and get the best gear without learning a damn thing, and your high-level gear will make up for everything by the time a player has access to it.

Just my 2cents.

[Reynhart]

That... actually sounds like a terrible difficulty system. The flaw is that the challenge is completely temporary.

Any challenge is only temporary...gear check ? You'll eventually outgear the content unless you're forced to sync really low.
Mechanics check ? Once you learn the dance, most of the difficulty is gone.

An option would be to add additional rewards for using the minimum ilvl sync, so that some people will have the choice of preventing outgearing. It could increase all rewards that "undersized party" removes.