Yoshida, The Creator: Savage is the worst tuning ever in an MMO

[SinisterJointss]

Why you don't understand if gordias difficult was 10 , midas is 8 , creator is 2 , why u don't see this?

2 for you? for others gordias was 15, midas was 10 and this may be 8 for them. why dont you see this?

[MilesSaintboroguh]

2 for you? for others gordias was 15, midas was 10 and this may be 8 for them. why dont you see this?

"It was easy for me, ergo, it should be easy for everyone else to clear."

[Pasquale]

2 for you? for others gordias was 15, midas was 10 and this may be 8 for them. why dont you see this?

Ok how difficult is a content for 1 man is about a point of view but what we cannot discuss is how easier is Creator compared to Midas , no you can't say it's just a bit easier , if you say this that means your difficult meter is completly wrong.

[Aquaslash]

Why you don't understand if gordias difficult was 10 , midas is 8 , creator is 2 , why u don't see this?

That does nothing to change or hurt my point. But let's play your game.

Let's say Creator is equal to midas, an 8 on your scale. You have your challenge and it takes a few weeks for the world firsters to win.

Meanwhile, the midcore community proceeds to be walled by A11S just like A3 and A6 did. A11 gets nerfed but it's not enough. Creator is deemed a failure, the raiding community has been thoroughly annihilated to where only the hardcore remain, and as usual, they unsub til the new expac, except they don't come back because they hated the tome grind.

Was it worth it to kill the game to satisfy the 1%? Csuse that is what you are asking

[Viridiana_Sovari]

The patch has literally only been out for a week. Some of us have jobs and families and don't put in 16 hour days.

Problem is I only 3 hours per night, except Tuesday where we went a bit longer due to excitment for the patch. Tuesday night we downed A9S and A10S. Wednesday we farmed Sophia for weapons all night. Thursday and Friday was 3 hours each of prog on A11S. Kill A11S Friday night at the end of raid. Did A12S 3 hours Saturday and Sunday. Got to final phase. Due to scheduling we can't get back in there until later in the week but the issue is that with little to no time in alex we are already almost done. MMOs content is supposed to be built to last until the next content patch and this simply doesn't cut it. My group is by no means hardcore. We usually raid a bit more the first week of the patch and then raid 3 or 4 nights during the week until prog is done. This lasted 7 or 8 weeks last tier. This time we would have finished it tonight if we could have raided. As it stands we literally kill the boss next time we walk in. That is just pathetic.

At what cost though?
Do you not understand the severity of the damage that Alexander has done to the game? What Gordias didn't obliterate, Midas finished off. Do you have any idea how many statics died during Alexander? Do you understand how FEW people haven't cleared Gordias and Midas? Hell I personally had every intention of clearing Midas and putting the Midan spear on my retainer, but my static never got past Vortex.

Why there are people on this board RIGHT NOW who think A12 NORMAL is too hard. How many more of them have to unsub before you get the point? Creator HAS to be this way. It's a necessary evil in order to justify the cost of making raids at all. The game can't survive on only pleasing the hardcore.

Sure I agree that Gordias was tuned to tightly. I found it enjoyable but understand why most people didn't. Midas however was tuned very well. It wasn't much harder than SCoB. People on this board right now who think a12s is too hard would never be stepping into savage anyways. They don't even apply to this conversation. You are right the game can't exist only catering to hardcore. That is why there is a normal mode to the raid. The savage raid tier is literally the only content that gets created for us. People who enjoy the difficulty of normal raids get twice as many raid tiers as I do. The 24 man raids are a joke and I hate them. If I had my way I would have a savage version of the 24 mans, but I know that won't realistically happen, so I'm not even going to bother asking. Dungeons are face roll easy, you can literally stand in every mechanic and not die if your healer is awake. Palace of the dead...hah that place is easily soloable, god forbid if you are in a normal group that is tank heals and dps, complete joke. But ya know what, if having all this other content that the rest of the community likes is what it takes for me to get my little sliver of content, then I am fine with that. What savage raids were isn't the problem, the problem is that there is also a "midcore" crowd that needs content as well. I agree with that 100%. The solution isn't to take away our content just so they can have content. You misunderstand. Me and most of the others that want savage to be hard realize that there is a crowd of people who need content. To be honest that is exactly what normal should have been in the first place. The 24 man content was already the faceroll content and tbh doesn't really fit into the cycle anymore if they continue to give 8 mans a faceroll mode. If normal had been the difficulty of A9S and A10S is currently from the start we would never have had the issues we are having now. But now that normals are faceroll the community will be up in arms if you take it away, so it is now on the developers to fix it. And simply put if they tune the next tier this poorly you will see a large chunk of the community leave. And considering how little money it is to scale the difficulty from normal to add a savage mode, that will negatively affect funding for other areas of the game.

My FC has 3 groups atm. And our 3rd group didn't even make it A8S until about 3 months into the tier. They never cleared it. To put into perspective how poorly this tier is tuned, they made it to A11S in 2 raid nights. Now I'm not saying anything bad about this group. They have less time and are a much more laid back and casual group. But even talking to them, they are already not satisfied with the tier. I promise you that there is a solid 5-10% of the community that is very upset about this right now at least. It is bigger than most people seem to think. I honestly would have been fine with a bit easier than Midas, but this is just way too far. And the funny thing is you will still only probably have like a 5% clear rate for a12s, simply b/c as the OP said the tuning is shit, not the fight design. So people will get to the last boss and hit a wall b/c they can't play the game and react properly. They won't get much higher clear rates and the same people will by crying that savage is too hard and that they pay 15 dollars a month so they deserve to be spoon fed the ability to do all the content in the game.

[Aquaslash]

*well thought out reply*

It doesn't seem like it, but to an extent, I agree with you. My overall message is that there needs to be a place for hardcore content, but now is not the time. We HAD hardcore content and it killed the game.

The true problem is actually in the normal/savage setup, and how SE is convinced it's the right path when its not. That's for another thread though.

Also I can't say enough that the only 24man that is a joke was Void Ark. Wiping City of Mechanics is still a complete crapshoot any time I queue for it. People are STILL getting mollywhopped by Forgall and Ozma. I personally quit doing it because I can't rely on DF to be competent enough to clear the damn thing

[Kitfox]

tl;dr: tuning raid content around player's skill instead of player's equipment is what fits better to FFXIV.

Adequate gear checks are necessary because player skill doesn't consist only of handling fight mechanics, you also have to handle class mechanics, your rotation. Extremely low gear tuning essentially gets rid of half the meta-game and makes gear progression obsolete for anyone who is able to clear a fight straight off.

I could even argue that the real difficulty in FFXIV comes from class mechanics, not fight design. Fight mechanics typically happen 5-20 sec apart from each other, sometimes in small clusters, when in comparison class mechanics happen 1-3 times in 2.5sec (GCD) for as long as the encounter lasts. When the game difficulty is so heavily tilted towards class mechanics, getting rid of gear checks is very stupid, because they're a way of challenging a large part of necessary player skill.

[Sparktacus]

I promise you that there is a solid 5-10% of the community that is very upset about this right now at least. It is bigger than most people seem to think.

You realize you are talking about 5-10% of 1%. So with estimated 6k A8 clears at the time (I know the number is higher now but probably not by much), this would be 300-600 people.

[Aquaslash]

getting rid of gear checks is very stupid, because they're a way of challenging a large part of necessary player skill.

No they're not. That's what we call artificial difficulty, aka Gordias Savage. The fight is hard not because you lack the skill to do the dance, but because the stats of your gear make it a mathematical impossibility. A truly skill based encounter means that so long as you have the minimum gear level to enter the instance, you should able to clear the duty once you figure out the dance. This of course requires that the fight be tested by players using gear at that minimum level, who also have the highest level of skill possible. I'd assume the devs have this when making the content.

Quite frankly, the best way to gear gate someone would be to lock them out of the instance until they meet the gear level. I'm pretty sure the game does this, but the minimum gear levels are absurdly low for some strange reason.

Perhaps the minimum for A11 AND a12s should have been 260? At least then you'd need a full set of tome gear and one raid piece

[Auteur]

No they're not. That's what we call artificial difficulty, aka Gordias Savage. The fight is hard not because you lack the skill to do the dance, but because the stats of your gear make it a mathematical impossibility. A truly skill based encounter means that so long as you have the minimum gear level to enter the instance, you should able to clear the duty once you figure out the dance. This of course requires that the fight be tested by players using gear at that minimum level, who also have the highest level of skill possible.

Just cleared Soph Ex in a pug group on PF starting on progression with people mostly IL 235 (I'm IL 235 myself). Glad that the SE devs gave people like me the chance to clear new content by focusing more on mechanics than just pure gear checks. Also, a lot of these "world first" and hardcore raiding groups had the benefit of being fully decked out with crafted IL250 gear before doing anything, so I feel they can't complain about a challenge (that's a huge 15+ gear boost they got right off the bat).