Matchmaking without the Trinity: how would you do it?

[Mugiawara]

Guild Wars 2 removed the trinity. It was their worst mistake, in my opinion.
The end result? Everyone was a DPS with a few support abilities and the strategy for every fight was "Stack in the corner so mechanics can't hit you, wear only maximum glass cannon gear and DPS DPS DPS before you die". It made for very boring gameplay.

This.
Can't be fcked with it. When I did the first dungeon in GW2, I quit, literally, quit the game right after.
I like to support and some people like to tank, I don't think everyone on zerg mode is fun, at all.

[Welsper59]

how would support function in 4 man content? do they get preference in one of the DPS slots? are their support abilities magnified in smaller groups?

That would indeed be the better way to get a support role to work in justifying a slot in 4-man content. Perhaps a linked buff, where you can select people at any time to link with, which will share a % of damage output by you to them and vice versa. The more people you share a link to, the less of a boost % it is, but still becomes stronger if others play as well as they should.

However, the devs (wrongfully) believe that support skills weigh so heavily in this game that it justifies nerfing the overall output by comparison to other jobs of the role, of which may have their own support uses that exist without detriment. BRD output is kept lower because situational party buffs are strong enough to warrant lower damage full-time (pre-buffs/nerfs), AST cards that are RNG are strong enough to warrant lower healing output (pre-buffs that were issued multiple times), etc.

If a support role were to be introduced, they'd definitely be DPS oriented. Probably another BRD or MCH, if the devs were left to their own devices. They likely wouldn't even touch the idea of damage distribution, for as interesting of a mechanic as that would be. Balancing would be a nightmare, justifiably, and the risk of having a terrible support job player would likely make and break groups that couldn't carry.

With so much focus on personal damage in this game, a job centered around doing damage through other party members would cause people to cry out from all sides. Idiot elitists would cry out that the support player isn't doing enough damage by comparison to their own (ignoring the fact that their own damage was amplified at the cost of the jobs sacrificed output), idiot support players would ignore the core mechanics like it were a situational BRD song and cry out for buffs since they think the job is useless, and so on. Neither of those examples would be even remotely surprising to most of us.

We're not exactly ready for support roles yet, and likely never will be for the foreseeable future. That "we" is referring to everyone, including the devs (at least so it would seem, based on how BRD and AST were/are treated).

[Auteur]

If a support role were to be introduced, they'd definitely be DPS oriented. Probably another BRD or MCH, if the devs were left to their own devices. They likely wouldn't even touch the idea of damage distribution, for as interesting of a mechanic as that would be. Balancing would be a nightmare, justifiably, and the risk of having a terrible support job player would likely make and break groups that couldn't carry. . . .

Agreed, from personal experience playing an Iss in Lineage 2, support was initially viewed as fungible until people realized just how many important global cds were placed on the support which turned support players into key shotcallers. However, using that dynamic in FF14 would place an intense amount of pressure on certain players which is not what SE wants (that's more of a mechanic for the hardcore PvP MMOs).

[Chiramu]

Lost Ark has no trinity system, it comes out next year. I think it's a good thing to get rid of, everyone has the right to be able to beat things into a pulp and not be downgraded to meat shield or healbot.

[Lewtskie]

How would I do it... {Hmmm.}

I've had some thoughts on the matter, recently. Well, for starters, I enjoy the trinity system. However, I think it would be cool if each job had a secondary role they could queue for.

Yeah,my issue isn't nearly with the Trinity itself, more how restricted it currently is; I'd love to see every job be capable of a secondary role. There was another thread that suggested every class has an alternate weapon, and I think this could be best to fit alternate roles.

Taking a cue from ESO, these weapons can be switched on the fly and each utilize their own kits. This would pretty much be able to replace stances, and may also help alleviate ability bloat. They'd all maintain their original roles for the sake of party queues, but being able to change up composition and take over as needed would improve combat dynamics.

I'd love to see a Scythe for DRK and maybe Dual Axes for WAR, making them DPS. PLD could side as a healer with maybe a Great Hammer or Holy Maul.

NIN and DRG I'd see alt as Tanks maybe, maybe even MCH (gobbie mechs anyone?). MNK and BRD seem most likely as Healers.

For hilarity I'd love to see WHM take charge as a Tank, lol.

[Hestern_Nestern]

There was another thread that suggested every class has an alternate weapon, and I think this could be best to fit alternate roles.

Actually, this sounds like an excellent way to switch between roles! Good on you. I agree with the scythe for DRK, and dual axes sounds cool for WAR. Personally Great Hammer or Holy Maul is a little boring to me for PLD, but it also makes the most sense.

I thought maybe monk could tank, but I can see where they might be open to healing, mantras, meditation, and all that jazz. Dragoon and Ninja as tank...well, ninja would be all evasion all the time, which worked in XI (even when it wasn't supposed to). As far as dragoon, that feels a bit odd to me, but healer feels even odder, so I'd say you made the right call. Yes, I agree, bard would make a fun off-healer support, like in XI.

Ah, yes, WHM would be hilarious as a tank...and also badass! I like it. What do you think WHM's second role weapon would be? A mace?

[myahele]

For hilarity I'd love to see WHM take charge as a Tank, lol.

I did this a while back for fun, but as a CNJ. Since many tank cross class abilities can be used, it was a fun experience and *kinda* viable but used up lot of MP to keep self alive and emnity

[Welsper59]

I did this a while back for fun, but as a CNJ. Since many tank cross class abilities can be used, it was a fun experience and *kinda* viable but used up lot of MP to keep self alive and emnity

Breaking the mold is where a lot of the old school fun came from for this genre. For a while now, the genre has been so streamlined that it's like seeing another CoD or Assassin's Creed be released. XIV (from 2.0) tried to break out a little with its focus on being an all around game, where a lot of that attention isn't necessarily on its combat content, but rather everything else. As such, we hope for more out of the combat (since that's primarily what people expect to take part in with these games).

The devs here are so caught up with trying to innovate themselves that they completely overlook how beneficial it can be to allow us some of the freedoms they restrict. This could be simple things like letting us properly under-man current dungeons and raids without resorting to DF (and unrewarded like with exp) to more controversial freedoms like letting us gear/condition our playstyles to fulfill other roles within reason.

It's a very weird development that some of us have noticed in the genre over the years from the beginning. Devs get into the habit of removing "fun" as it seems like it needs to be limited. I'm referring to actual concepts of "for fun" rather than subjective things like "Gordias difficulty is fun".

WoW, for example, originally gave players fun items like costumes to use at will (almost) with no real limitations to it. Somewhere down the line though, that became too taboo to allow players such freedoms and in came 1hr cooldown for a 20sec costume effect.

Even here with my earlier mention of under-man parties, it became too absurd of an idea to allow people to under-man content. Want to try to duo/trio low level dungeons? Well now you can... you just can't do it for exp, this is ignoring the fact that they could still introduce exp limitations like is already in place for world mobs. Likewise with current endgame dungeons. Most people only do them through Roulette solo for the bonus, so it's not like under-man groups would be rampant enough to kill queues lol.

It's just an unfortunate (but minor) place that the genre finds itself in at times.

[Lewtskie]

Dragoon and Ninja as tank...well, ninja would be all evasion all the time, which worked in XI (even when it wasn't supposed to). As far as dragoon, that feels a bit odd to me, but healer feels even odder, so I'd say you made the right call. Yes, I agree, bard would make a fun off-healer support, like in XI.

Ah, yes, WHM would be hilarious as a tank...and also badass! I like it. What do you think WHM's second role weapon would be? A mace?

Honestly, I pinned NIN as Tank purely from experience in XI, lol. DRG I figured made sense as they already wear most heavy-style gear as tanks do, and for whatever reason have a natural parry buff. Also, DRG Tanking something other than the floor can't be all too terrible. :V

WHM I'm thinking back to XI again, just whipping out that healer plate mail and Kraken Club!

[Rhaja]

Actually, this sounds like an excellent way to switch between roles! Good on you. I agree with the scythe for DRK, and dual axes sounds cool for WAR. Personally Great Hammer or Holy Maul is a little boring to me for PLD, but it also makes the most sense.

I thought maybe monk could tank, but I can see where they might be open to healing, mantras, meditation, and all that jazz. Dragoon and Ninja as tank...well, ninja would be all evasion all the time, which worked in XI (even when it wasn't supposed to). As far as dragoon, that feels a bit odd to me, but healer feels even odder, so I'd say you made the right call. Yes, I agree, bard would make a fun off-healer support, like in XI.

Ah, yes, WHM would be hilarious as a tank...and also badass! I like it. What do you think WHM's second role weapon would be? A mace?

B-but MNK tank ;__;.