Matchmaking without the Trinity: how would you do it?

[Auteur]

If a support role were to be introduced, they'd definitely be DPS oriented. Probably another BRD or MCH, if the devs were left to their own devices. They likely wouldn't even touch the idea of damage distribution, for as interesting of a mechanic as that would be. Balancing would be a nightmare, justifiably, and the risk of having a terrible support job player would likely make and break groups that couldn't carry. . . .

Agreed, from personal experience playing an Iss in Lineage 2, support was initially viewed as fungible until people realized just how many important global cds were placed on the support which turned support players into key shotcallers. However, using that dynamic in FF14 would place an intense amount of pressure on certain players which is not what SE wants (that's more of a mechanic for the hardcore PvP MMOs).

[Hestern_Nestern]

How would I do it... {Hmmm.}

I've had some thoughts on the matter, recently. Well, for starters, I enjoy the trinity system. However, I think it would be cool if each job had a secondary role they could queue for. Bards could queue dps or healer, summoners can queue dps, or tank (I say tank because the oft neglected Titan-Egi), and so on. In their secondary role, their trait window would change to accommodate that role's needs. Mayhap the trait, A Song Of Fire, causes flaming arrow to take on an asylum-like effect, for example. Bard's would also need some kind of healing-over-time song, and perhaps the Warden's Paean shifts into an at-will esuna, with the added bonus of blocking the next effect as well. Perhaps, also, bard would lose one class' crossclass skills, and have crossclass skills from CNJ added to the mix. Just some ideas. Now for a list to sum up what I am trying to say:

1) every job is given a secondary role they can switch to (outside of battle in the open-world, not at all in instances)
2) the classes they can take crossclass skills from change, or at least one of them does
3) a separate trait window for the secondary role handles modification of existing abilities to better fit that role's needs
4) they can only queue as one of the roles at a time, thus keeping to the trinity, while adding role options
5) new abilities could be introduced for the secondary role, maybe, though my preference is modifying current spells, skills, and abilities

for some added fun:

Summoners, when tanking, need a holmgang/hallowed ground/living dead. This is what I came up with:

Summoner's secondary role trait window gains the trait, "Earthly Tether" on Tri-Bind. Using what we now know as Tri-Bind, on their titan-egi, Tri-Bind splits the summoner and the egi's hp between them, while making it so that neither one of them can die while the other yet lives, and that healing abilities on the egi also heal the summoner, and healing abilities on the summoner also heal the egi.

Obviously, each primary role skill would have to be closely looked at and balanced for the secondary role, to keep any job from being too powerful as a secondary role. I thought maybe they could implement the secondary role system for dungeons and such at first, then move on to allowing EX primals and 24-man raids/8-man raids afterward, once all things have been properly adjusted for smaller stuff.

[Lewtskie]

How would I do it... {Hmmm.}

I've had some thoughts on the matter, recently. Well, for starters, I enjoy the trinity system. However, I think it would be cool if each job had a secondary role they could queue for.

Yeah,my issue isn't nearly with the Trinity itself, more how restricted it currently is; I'd love to see every job be capable of a secondary role. There was another thread that suggested every class has an alternate weapon, and I think this could be best to fit alternate roles.

Taking a cue from ESO, these weapons can be switched on the fly and each utilize their own kits. This would pretty much be able to replace stances, and may also help alleviate ability bloat. They'd all maintain their original roles for the sake of party queues, but being able to change up composition and take over as needed would improve combat dynamics.

I'd love to see a Scythe for DRK and maybe Dual Axes for WAR, making them DPS. PLD could side as a healer with maybe a Great Hammer or Holy Maul.

NIN and DRG I'd see alt as Tanks maybe, maybe even MCH (gobbie mechs anyone?). MNK and BRD seem most likely as Healers.

For hilarity I'd love to see WHM take charge as a Tank, lol.

[Hestern_Nestern]

There was another thread that suggested every class has an alternate weapon, and I think this could be best to fit alternate roles.

Actually, this sounds like an excellent way to switch between roles! Good on you. I agree with the scythe for DRK, and dual axes sounds cool for WAR. Personally Great Hammer or Holy Maul is a little boring to me for PLD, but it also makes the most sense.

I thought maybe monk could tank, but I can see where they might be open to healing, mantras, meditation, and all that jazz. Dragoon and Ninja as tank...well, ninja would be all evasion all the time, which worked in XI (even when it wasn't supposed to). As far as dragoon, that feels a bit odd to me, but healer feels even odder, so I'd say you made the right call. Yes, I agree, bard would make a fun off-healer support, like in XI.

Ah, yes, WHM would be hilarious as a tank...and also badass! I like it. What do you think WHM's second role weapon would be? A mace?

[Lewtskie]

Dragoon and Ninja as tank...well, ninja would be all evasion all the time, which worked in XI (even when it wasn't supposed to). As far as dragoon, that feels a bit odd to me, but healer feels even odder, so I'd say you made the right call. Yes, I agree, bard would make a fun off-healer support, like in XI.

Ah, yes, WHM would be hilarious as a tank...and also badass! I like it. What do you think WHM's second role weapon would be? A mace?

Honestly, I pinned NIN as Tank purely from experience in XI, lol. DRG I figured made sense as they already wear most heavy-style gear as tanks do, and for whatever reason have a natural parry buff. Also, DRG Tanking something other than the floor can't be all too terrible. :V

WHM I'm thinking back to XI again, just whipping out that healer plate mail and Kraken Club!

[Rhaja]

Actually, this sounds like an excellent way to switch between roles! Good on you. I agree with the scythe for DRK, and dual axes sounds cool for WAR. Personally Great Hammer or Holy Maul is a little boring to me for PLD, but it also makes the most sense.

I thought maybe monk could tank, but I can see where they might be open to healing, mantras, meditation, and all that jazz. Dragoon and Ninja as tank...well, ninja would be all evasion all the time, which worked in XI (even when it wasn't supposed to). As far as dragoon, that feels a bit odd to me, but healer feels even odder, so I'd say you made the right call. Yes, I agree, bard would make a fun off-healer support, like in XI.

Ah, yes, WHM would be hilarious as a tank...and also badass! I like it. What do you think WHM's second role weapon would be? A mace?

B-but MNK tank ;__;.

[Dreamsoap]

B-but MNK tank ;__;.

Monk tank needs to happen!

[myahele]

For hilarity I'd love to see WHM take charge as a Tank, lol.

I did this a while back for fun, but as a CNJ. Since many tank cross class abilities can be used, it was a fun experience and *kinda* viable but used up lot of MP to keep self alive and emnity

[Welsper59]

I did this a while back for fun, but as a CNJ. Since many tank cross class abilities can be used, it was a fun experience and *kinda* viable but used up lot of MP to keep self alive and emnity

Breaking the mold is where a lot of the old school fun came from for this genre. For a while now, the genre has been so streamlined that it's like seeing another CoD or Assassin's Creed be released. XIV (from 2.0) tried to break out a little with its focus on being an all around game, where a lot of that attention isn't necessarily on its combat content, but rather everything else. As such, we hope for more out of the combat (since that's primarily what people expect to take part in with these games).

The devs here are so caught up with trying to innovate themselves that they completely overlook how beneficial it can be to allow us some of the freedoms they restrict. This could be simple things like letting us properly under-man current dungeons and raids without resorting to DF (and unrewarded like with exp) to more controversial freedoms like letting us gear/condition our playstyles to fulfill other roles within reason.

It's a very weird development that some of us have noticed in the genre over the years from the beginning. Devs get into the habit of removing "fun" as it seems like it needs to be limited. I'm referring to actual concepts of "for fun" rather than subjective things like "Gordias difficulty is fun".

WoW, for example, originally gave players fun items like costumes to use at will (almost) with no real limitations to it. Somewhere down the line though, that became too taboo to allow players such freedoms and in came 1hr cooldown for a 20sec costume effect.

Even here with my earlier mention of under-man parties, it became too absurd of an idea to allow people to under-man content. Want to try to duo/trio low level dungeons? Well now you can... you just can't do it for exp, this is ignoring the fact that they could still introduce exp limitations like is already in place for world mobs. Likewise with current endgame dungeons. Most people only do them through Roulette solo for the bonus, so it's not like under-man groups would be rampant enough to kill queues lol.

It's just an unfortunate (but minor) place that the genre finds itself in at times.

[loreleidiangelo]

I've never been able to play an MMO that doesn't have the trinity. Everything always boils down to ping-reliant i-frame twitch gaming or self-heal potion-chugging zergfests. {Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.}

EDIT: why does giving each class unique niche utility somehow translate into people wanting a removal of the trinity, OP? Not sure how you made that logic leap there.