Yoshida, The Creator: Savage is the worst tuning ever in an MMO

[Kyne_Lyons]

If you think savage is too easy you just need to accept that you are in a very small, very vocal minority and SE simply cannot cater to your needs because they do not have the resources to do so. Sure, everyone would like more content of the difficulty level they prefer, but you have to temper that desire with the reality the SE has to sell this product relative to the people who consume said product. They have the stats of the clear rates. They aren't going to spend their time making content only 2.5% of the playerbase will play, it's not cost-effective.

The end. /thread

Not the end, no. The content is already being developed for Normal Mode and they are spending pennies developing Savage Mode. This is how it works for every MMORPG on the market including World of Warcraft, zero exceptions.

[KaitlanKela]

Not the end, no. The content is already being developed for Normal Mode and they are spending pennies developing Savage Mode. This is how it works for every MMORPG on the market including World of Warcraft, zero exceptions.

If you really think the extra skills, mechanics, animations models and transitions only take pennies to make I don't think there's much more that can be said

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Not the end, no. The content is already being developed for Normal Mode and they are spending pennies developing Savage Mode. This is how it works for every MMORPG on the market including World of Warcraft, zero exceptions.

Yeah, no. It doesn't quite work out that way. First and foremost, they have to adjust the mechanics based on how many new additions will be added, then have to account for server space, balance, tests and any changes in aesthetic. To give an example the sheer complexity seemingly simple looking animations can be, Tifa's hair in Advent Children was constantly re-rendered in order to create a proper fluidity. This wound up being one of the most costly bits of animation in the entire film, and the primary reason they eventually stopped showing it as much as they could get away with. If I recall, Tifa's fight with Loz took a massive chunk of the budget all because of her hair. Rounding this back to Savage, one new attack and its associated animations do not come cheap. You need only ask Skyrim or Fallout modders how long it takes for them to develop one. None of this includes the man hour costs either.

[Velhart]

Yeah, no. It doesn't quite work out that way. First and foremost, they have to adjust the mechanics based on how many new additions will be added, then have to account for server space, balance, tests and any changes in aesthetic. To give an example the sheer complexity seemingly simple looking animations can be, Tifa's hair in Advent Children was constantly re-rendered in order to create a proper fluidity. This wound up being one of the most costly bits of animation in the entire film, and the primary reason they eventually stopped showing it as much as they could get away with. If I recall, Tifa's fight with Loz took a massive chunk of the budget all because of her hair. Rounding this back to Savage, one new attack and its associated animations do not come cheap. You need only ask Skyrim or Fallout modders how long it takes for them to develop one. None of this includes the man hour costs either.

Not taking sides since I don't know how development of these entirely work, but SE did say in an interview once is how they make raid content is they first build it where it is impossible to defeat the boss, and then work down the intensity of the mechanics and checks till they are at a level that is considered balanced. So if this is a thing, then ideally it shouldn't cost -that much- to add extra modes. Even SCoB Savage was just simply just bringing things they took out back.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Not taking sides since I don't know how development of these entirely work, but SE did say in an interview once is how they make raid content is they first build it where it is impossible to defeat the boss, and then work down the intensity of the mechanics and checks till they are at a level that is considered balanced. So if this is a thing, then ideally it shouldn't cost -that much- to add extra modes. Even SCoB Savage was just simply just bringing things they took out back.

That doesn't mean there isn't still a substantial cost involved. Even if they build Savage first, then scale down, they have to re-design the fight to accommodate a few missing mechanics, thus necessitating different animations and/or coding. The quote you cited doesn't specify money. Saying one of the raid tier is "pennies on the dollar" is ridiculous. Computer animation and CGI is absurdly expensive. Not to mention, you again, have man hours. Regardless, it remains a waste of resources if 1% of players even bother with.

Except that it does, and they've already said as much. Given the choice I will always believe what a tenured MMO developer says before a forum poster.

Did they cite specific examples of costs or say it's cheap? If not, then I suspect you're misinterpreting. Regardless, if you'd "rather listen a MMO developer," I suppose you should support these changes. After all, if FFXIV's dev team found Gordias/Midas profitable and/or worthwhile of their resources, they wouldn't have dropped the difficulty on The Creator. A9S-A12S is essentially them saying, the clear rates were far too low and it needs to be better accessible to be worthwhile.

[Velhart]

That doesn't mean there isn't still a substantial cost involved. Even if they build Savage first, then scale down, they have to re-design the fight to accommodate a few missing mechanics, thus necessitating different animations and/or coding. The quote you cited doesn't specify money. Saying one of the raid tier is "pennies on the dollar" is ridiculous. Computer animation and CGI is absurdly expensive. Not to mention, you again, have man hours. Regardless, it remains a waste of resources if 1% of players even bother with.

I never said it wasn't expensive. I said it is not as much to make as it would be to add onto it and create new assets to accommodate the harder mode. Developing anything in an MMO costs money and time. The question is, is it to the point that SE cannot add an extra mode. Their last update of this a few months back according to them is yes, it is too much.

You have to remember however is what that 1% brings to this game. The hardcore players are the ones buying the crafted gear, food, and potions, not the casual players so much. They are the ones making raid guides, how to's, and BiS theories that a lot of casual players follow. If SE truly believed they were not important, then raiding would not even be a thing to begin with. They would not of experiment as much as they did, they would just make Alexander on normal mode and that is that. SE does value that 1% in some form, they just have this belief that the raids have to have high clear rates as opposed to simply high activity.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I never said it wasn't expensive. I said it is not as much to make as it would be to add onto it and create new assets to accommodate the harder mode. Developing anything in an MMO costs money and time. The question is, is it to the point that SE cannot add an extra mode. Their last update of this a few months back according to them is yes, it is too much.

You have to remember however is what that 1% brings to this game. The hardcore players are the ones buying the crafted gear, food, and potions, not the casual players so much. They are the ones making raid guides, how to's, and BiS theories that a lot of casual players follow. If SE truly believed they were not important, then raiding would not even be a thing to begin with. They would not of experiment as much as they did, they would just make Alexander on normal mode and that is that. SE does value that 1% in some form, they just have this belief that the raids have to have high clear rates as opposed to simply high activity.

Actually, that isn't true. MrHappy has openly expressed enjoying this raid tier and outright said on his Twitch stream if they hadn't scaled Savage down to allow the raid scene a chance to recover, they wouldn't have one in 4.0. Mizzteq is midcore, and actually a victim of Gordias. She only managed a full clear after Midas dropped due to her static giving up. They are both the most well known and popular guide makers, and neither have any intention of leaving. Furthermore, Elysium and Angered have also said they liked The Creator. Can't get much more hardcore than World First players. And prior to 3.2, crafted gear was utterly worthless to raiders. It remained among the primary complaint of crafters, yet all of them made a profit. xAshe10x and Mithrie do guides on all level crafting. Both have made tons of profit outside the top tier crafts.

I never said the hardcore side isn't important, but you cannot cater to it when the vast majority of your audience has next to no interest in that content. Not when the statistics are so enormously one-sided. They attempted this for over a year, yet Savage clear rates remained abysmal. Hence why they are now attempting to make it midcore-esque. Whether they scaled Savage back too far is up for debate, but no, you aren't going to see guide markers or the market suffer even if they kept it exactly as is.

The main difference between WoW and FFXIV in development terms is that content balancing is developed for Savage and then scaled down (also linked with source on the first page). WoW develops Normal Mode balancing and scales up. There is something you need to understand when quoting development costs. Once the money is spent making an asset, it doesn't cost more to use it again. The idea that there is extra cost for another mode is a misnomer, you aren't paying for the same meal twice. They are justifying the cost of encounters for Normal Mode, which again, is the only reason they didn't decide get rid of raiding entirely in Heavensward.

If this were true, we would already have three difficulties. Yoshi specifically cited costs and a lack of resources (in so many words) for the reason we don't. Bosses are all scripted, thus certain attacks follow a specific animations. I never said you couldn't reuse assets. I said not every asset is re-useable, thus necessitating new animations. If say, Sophia does a certain motion in extreme to provide a hint to her next mechanic, but that whole sequence isn't in normal. Then that animation is exclusively for extreme, and therefore, an extra cost. The order they develop it is irrelevant. They still had to do a separate animation at some point.

[Kyne_Lyons]

If this were true, we would already have three difficulties.

The FFXIV development team has shown that they prefer incrementalism, they tend not to make radical shifts in development practices on just any old patch. I think there's a chance for it in 4.0, but my theory is that 3.0 was the Normal Mode "experiment" to see if it was worth continuing. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Velhart]

snip

You are arguing something else entirely. The argument was the cost of adding tiers and the importance of hardcore players. I never brought up how they feel about this tier in particular.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, most of us are aware as I said in previous posts/threads that 3.4's difficulty is the result of the team believing that the lv.60 rotation is too complicated and difficulty may be increased again depending on how battle classes are set up in 4.0. In actuality, Creator is probably the best midcore raid they have done this expansion. I do agree with the OP that gear scale and mechanic skipping should come into question and be taken in as feedback for 4.0 expansion. If SE took that feedback into consideration with 4.0 and add a Savage difficulty on top of that. That really is the best compromise the game can make.

The FFXIV development team has shown that they prefer incrementalism, they tend not to make radical shifts in development practices on just any old patch. I think there's a chance for it in 4.0, but my theory is that 3.0 was the Normal Mode "experiment" to see if it was worth continuing. We'll just have to wait and see.

One thing we do know is that SE knows player's thoughts on the raiding scene are very split. If he decides to try to make a compromise or simply decide to cater to one side only is something we have to wait till 4.0 to see. They at least acknowledge there is controversy.

[Kyne_Lyons]

A9S-A12S is essentially them saying, the clear rates were far too low and it needs to be better accessible to be worthwhile.

This is the reason they decided to add Normal Mode to begin with. The significant cost of developing an encounter is mainly in the art assets and animation modeling, and musical composition which in 2.0 was limited to just one difficulty of raids. The participation rates of the content (note: not completion rates) wasn't where they wanted it, and Yoshi mentioned that there was an internal discussion to not develop raids in Heavensward because much of the community didn't even try it out. On top of this, in 2.0 the raid was tied very closely with the story. So they decided to add a Normal Mode since it was content designed for anybody who queued to complete, and allowed them to justify the cost of developing it. Earlier this year he said (quote is on the first page with a source) that 50% of max-level players had completed Normal Mode and that they were very happy with that level of participation.

The main difference between WoW and FFXIV in development terms is that content balancing is developed for Savage and then scaled down (also linked with source on the first page). WoW develops Normal Mode balancing and scales up. There is something you need to understand when quoting development costs. Once the money is spent making an asset, it doesn't cost more to use it again. The idea that there is extra cost for another mode is a misnomer, you aren't paying for the same meal twice. They are justifying the cost of encounters for Normal Mode, which again, is the only reason they didn't decide get rid of raiding entirely in Heavensward.