Is Endgame Just a Cycle of "Static Killers?"

[SpookyGhost]

1. Complain raids too easy
2. Get a raid too hard (AS)
3. Large numbers within an already small group quit, and
4. The remainder doesn't want to deal with new people and just cannabalizes a declining group of exp raiders.

Aside from point #1 (which was a minority of a minority to begin with), this was the case for every server with the launch of Gordias. I think you have a really skewed version on how raiding is supposed to go - maybe this is your first time raiding in an MMO, idk. To put it simply: you don't end up in a top raiding guild by just being good - you have to put in the grunt work. You have to join less than ideal groups to have empirical evidence that you can raid well, and this doesn't just come down to how high your DPS goes (though that's a good way to get your foot in the door via fflogs). You also need to demonstrate a good attitude (which currently you're lacking), an ability to communicate with your team to resolve problems, and an ability to perform a leadership role if the need arises.

In other MMOs, and in XIV, applying to a top raiding guild is like applying to a well paying job - they don't just hand those out to Joe who just graduated high school and thinks he deserves to jump straight into the deep end without even getting his feet wet first. If this is too much work for you, then you don't actually want to raid Savage because there's literally no way around this. The only other option you have is to accept that your progress is going to be slow and try to have fun with it by raiding casually with friends (which I'd honestly recommend, hardcore raiding isn't all it's cut out to be in the first place).

"But why don't you make a static or join one?"

Because those are still filled with morons as well and the few that actually have quality players in them expect you to not have a life. Statics are a failed concept for this game and the Devs should find a way to make content that trains the players to actually be good, know their jobs and actually motivate people to improve and to release content that isn't dependent on having "static" groups.

I realize this isn't you saying this and it's a quote from GameFAQs (would recommend against going there, never been a good place for solid information, mainly visited by 14 year olds looking for cheat codes) but this is a terrible mentality to have and it's definitely not the mentality of a raid leader so thank God this guy isn't actually starting his own static. As I explained before, trying to get into a top guild is like applying for a job - one of the best things you can bring to the table is proof of leadership skills as well as an ability to work with your group. I started a group quite awhile ago going in with the mentality of "I realize a lot of players in this group are going to be below average, so I'm going to up their game and we're going to clear content no problem".

That was a horrible thing to think. You can't force people into being better at the game - the much better way to approach it is to accept that they're going to be a hindrance to prog and kick them. Sounds harsh, I know, but I can tell you from putting together that static that the conflict of goals and mentalities in that static lead to it's demise and I feel like that was entirely my fault. If you intend on raiding casually then you need to put together a group that has the same mindset - same with raiding seriously.

The MSQ and story trials do nothing to address this and actually make things worse. I 100% agree with Yoshi P that the average player skill dropped when Heavensward came out. People were better at this game in the 2.0 patch series as a whole.

This (still from GameFAQs ik) is half true, half not. One way they could handle adjusting player skill at end game is to make them handle end game ideas as they're progressing but obviously not giving them a full blown end game dungeon. Unfortunately all you learn throughout the MSQ is to hit things til they die - which is true in end game, but you also have to deal with mechanics. Another way they could solve this is by simply putting the Novice Hall to use and introducing Intermediate and Advanced options that teach more nuanced things. Maybe add explanations of skills and how they should be used to the job leaders, stuff like that.

Anyway, the reason why it's half wrong is because player skill didn't go down in HW. It went up, but so did the requirement for player skill (mainly through new abilities). So people are basically where they were before, except now if they screw up their punishment is even harsher.

Although arguably coming from an elitist perspective, the implication is clear: the statics produced by the current raiding community are counterproductive and self-defeating.

Arguably, if SE wants to rebuild the "raiding" community, it needs to hit the reset button and blow it up. Reduce difficulty on all raids so that they are puggable/DF, and then gradually increase difficulty from there. The idea: cast as wide a net as possible to rebuild the base, and work it up from there.

Well, the only raid atm is Alexander and they're intending on making Creator super duper easy so you're getting your wish. And I agree, they should make everything super easy and work their way up, it worked in Coil so it was weird when Gordias launched and they decided they wanted to do something harder than every Coil outside of Savage SCoB.

[FunkYeahDragons]

Statics aren't necessary for the first few fights or for EX primals. You could absolutely raid through PF on some servers if you wanted, it would just be slower progress.

Some statics will pick up newer players, the newcomer just has to look like they're on the same page and are willing to respect the amount of time and gil others have put into progress. Many raiders have spent time and gil on food, melds, and reading about their job and the fights to try to improve and win. I think the only real struggle comes for players who won't do any of that but want a group that does.

[Auteur]

In other MMOs, and in XIV, applying to a top raiding guild is like applying to a well paying job

With all due respect, this is a primary point where I will severely disagree with statics and proponents of these kind of statics. A video game is not meant to be a projection of someone's dissatisfaction or wish to cross-apply their actual career; I like my actual career very much and don't intend on taking a second job via playing FF14. Realistically, some people may not be as satisfied and consequently they project. That's their prerogative, but attempting to cater to this community is very very bad for the health of the game.

And SE knows this. This isn't a F2P MMO where whales and hardcores are awarded and the dev wants to cater to them because they spend a load of cash. Here in a sub MMO, a casual headcount is valued pretty much the same as a hardcore player; they are paying the same sub.

Also, the mentality "I realize a lot of players in this group are going to be below average" is inofitself quite presumptuous and arguably condescending. But again, that's an individual's prerogative I suppose, but also exemplifies the problematic mindset of static raiders.

[RyuSaarva]

Pharos was easy when it was released if you had half a brain. People refused to pay attention to mechanics and demanded a nerf. Heck, people *still* wipe on the first boss because they refuse to follow mechanics, even though the dogs can be killed in a hit or three now.

the original sirius was the only content I have been kicked from a DF party because my item level was too low, that happenned after we reached the last boss.

[SpookyGhost]

With all due respect, this is a primary point where I will severely disagree with statics and proponents of these kind of statics. A video game is not meant to be a projection of someone's dissatisfaction or wish to cross-apply their actual career; I like my actual career very much and don't intend on taking a second job via playing FF14. Realistically, some people may not be as satisfied and consequently they project. That's their prerogative, but attempting to cater to this community is very very bad for the health of the game.

Okay. But raiding is meant to be the hardest/most challenging content and requires many, many hours to kill it. If your argument is "there shouldn't be hard content" - then I agree, personally. I don't think it's beneficial to the game to continue producing content for 1% of the community, especially when progression for everyone who doesn't raid is non-existant (literally just capping tomes weekly, which we've been doing since 2.0). But I think this idea that raiding is a second job as opposed to just being similar to how you'd apply for a job is a bit misguided. You don't need to work 9-5 6 days a week as a raider, you just need to show up when the group raids. You decide what group you're going to join, and if their raid hours don't match what you're willing to put in then you don't join that group. Raiding can be as hardcore or as casual as you want it to be, it all depends on what kind of group you put yourself in. If you want to play with the really good players who kill the content really quickly then you have to put in the effort.

And SE knows this. This isn't a F2P MMO where whales and hardcores are awarded and the dev wants to cater to them because they spend a load of cash. Here in a sub MMO, a casual headcount is valued pretty much the same as a hardcore player; they are paying the same sub.

Right, correct, it's very much geared toward the casual player with Savage being the outlier. It is weird, however, that people think a content called "Savage X" is meant to be accessible. Surely if they know it's supposed to be a ball buster that they should study up and try to play well. That's what JP does, they know that if they play horribly they'll be a hindrance to their group so they strive to be a productive cog in that machine. Obviously as I said, you can remove raiding entirely, take those resources, and put them into different stuff that's more easily accessible - I wouldn't have a problem with that though I imagine a portion of the community would. Just making Savage more midcore and less hardcore is the right decision for now, imo, but another option they have is to keep the raids but split them into 3 difficulties - accommodating for all skill levels. This would take more resources than they're currently putting in though so idk.

Also, the mentality "I realize a lot of players in this group are going to be below average" is inofitself quite presumptuous and arguably condescending. But again, that's an individual's prerogative I suppose, but also exemplifies the problematic mindset of static raiders.

I played with them before, most of them were really good players (one was the best BRD/MCH on the server, even) but the conflicting mentalities of how the group needed to progress lead to arguments and hostility which in turn lead to the fall of the group. It's just how it goes when you have people with different goals in the same group - doesn't really work out.

[Lone-wolfe-02]

Think i don't even know why this thread was made for... from what i can gather they're mad they can't do savage that's what this is boiling down to right? an optional content where the gear obtained from it is not even needed to do basically everything in the game, i also don't understand why you have this war against statics for you seem to think anyone who's in a static is a terrible person and should feel bad for ever wanting to get together with the same group of people a few nights a week and have some fun.

[Lisotte]

snip

I kinda skipped from the first page of the thread to the last page because this thread seems like nonsense and you're still talking nonsense about statics when I can definitely tell right away you have a vary narrow view of statics. To you statics are the enemy: to make some progression, to hit the hardest content, on NA/EU servers you generally have to dedicate yourself to certain times a week for a static. I feel like what you're really saying is "I'm not okay making a certain part of my week dedicated to this game." And you know, that's FINE. Most of the playerbase, especially the NA/EU community, are quite casual. If you don't to deal with a static, then don't. You can pug EX primals (the second hardest content), and chances are with how much easier the Creator is supposed to be, you can pug Alexander Savage in 3.4 as well.


With that in mind, please don't just make the whole idea of "statics" out to be the enemy of FFXIV players everywhere for some reason. People in statics have a natural advantage because it's much, much easier to tackle difficult content with people you know, and know how they play. On top of that, the loot structure makes it much more viable to static as well. I hope the devs at some point can figure out how to make the loot work for pugs as well. But the main difficulty really is that in some other MMO's, raiding doesn't absolutely require the same 8 people every week but in FFXIV it largely does. But I digress...

Statics are great, statics are fun. You find a range of players from those who are on the absolute bleeding edge who are highly competitive and want to break world records first, to the midcores who apply themselves but in a laid-back way, to casual statics that are amongst friends who just enjoy trying to overcome a challenge together. Stop thinking of statics as super hardcore only. Like others have said, if you build a rep for yourself then you can potentially try to be a bit hardcore. But for most of us we're progressing at our own pace. As someone who has both pugged ex primals and raided in a static, nothing in this game really cues you in on the enjoyment you actually get from having a real raid group. When you pug something hard, you bang your head against a wall. When you play with your friends in a static (whether you were already friends or made friends through the static), you tackle a challenge together and it's a helluva lot smoother.

Raiding is great but even when next patch pugging is more viable like you want, you're not quite going to get the best experience of raiding, which is with a static

[Auteur]

If your argument is "there shouldn't be hard content" - then I agree, personally. I don't think it's beneficial to the game to continue producing content for 1% of the community . . . Obviously as I said, you can remove raiding entirely, take those resources, and put them into different stuff that's more easily accessible - I wouldn't have a problem with that though I imagine a portion of the community would.

Precisely one of my primary points. It does not make sense for a sub-based MMO to attempt to cater to hardcore players because there's no financial upside; sub is all about quantity of people paying for the same sub. In F2P conversely you have to cater to the hardcore because that's where you're more likely to get the whales; a lot of people playing for free doesn't pay the bills. Seeing stuff like this from hardcore players asking for more gates makes no sense, i.e. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...mode-Alexander.

As I previously stated, SE should blow it up and cut their losses from Alexander. The economics don't work and it obviously caused a lot of damage to the bottom line. The thing is though Yosh-P does seem to recognize the right lane for SE to drive in to.

[randysquirrel]

imo the problem with raiding, is that the game does not have a natural learning curve, culminating in savage. You can still clear expert roulette (SE really need to change the name of that roulette lol) without using half of the moves at your disposal, or following your rotation. We still have brds that never sing any songs at all, as an example, and the game does nothing precisely nothing to indicate to you that you should. Nowhere else in the game is apoc required, and if you can never use aetherial manipulation. Half of the playerbase, rightly or wrongly, measure the success of expert roulette on whether or not it is cleared.

If the game naturally got harder, and people got used to using more of their toolkit that perhaps they hadn't needed on easier content, they might be ready and be less daunted by raid. But it doesn't; you can clear 99% of things blindly button-mashing, and then there's raid that actually requires full knowledge of your class, group co-ordination and decent dps. You can't blame raid groups for only taking someone that already has a proven experience of raid, but it's also equally difficult for anyone to get that experience if they are new to raid scene

[Lone-wolfe-02]

snip

Except Hardcore raiders aren't catered to at all we have one diffculty designed around us and the rest of the game is more casual based, is it so bad that we have one thing catered to us? we pay subs too and we want that challenging content.
Why are you so against that when the rest of the game is catered entirely around you? because you can't get the gear that is meaningless since it has the same ilvl as tombstone gear once said gear is upgraded. SE does a pretty good job of caterring to everyone to be honest, don't be angry that can't clear content that wasn't designed for you in the first place, i wasn't able to clear A8s but i'm not mad i enjoyed pushing myself and looking forward to doing the same in Creator.

Because that's what this thread is about right? you don't like that the hardcore community gets one piece of content catered around them while you have everything else.