Yoshi-P on Character Growth

[HungryHippo]

even if they change the system , u will still come here cry that ur bored everytime so whats the point in changing the system :P

id rather have new dungeons and stuff every 3 months :P

Not to sound very negative, but I know you can't please everyone, but how is the game going to grow or do new things, challenges and so on, if no one complains? The ''crying'' you mention are complains. Don't forget how this game was built, on complaints from 1.0 version of the game. I'm honestly mind blown people say other people cry, but yet I've seen Yoshi countless of times say they do care about those ''crying'' people. Because if you have paid attention and I've read on these forums while I was gone for a long time, example 99 tokens for a bird from the primals, and they added it? That ''crying'' you mention also comes from people who only ask for vanity/glamour. You do know a larg part of the community also do raid, do primals and fights and story and not to just dress up and pretend this is a sim city game? I'm sorry I sound harsh, but the way you talk doesn't add any contribution at all at the same time, you don't really show you have any opinion at all, which makes your statement less worth.

Also keep in mind as I stated already in this thread and if you did see and if not I'll quote myself:

Thank you, it's just the fact I'm worried for myself and other people who are new or recently came back. Yesterday I saw a couple of people who did the same main story quest like me, some of us ended up doing some of them together which is cool, however the wait wasn't fun and some of us just logged out. I can understand people do want breaks, but this is a bit concern, considering, many people preach new players coming to game is good (which is true!) however, those players need someone to ''guide'' them and make the game feel that it's not a ''ghost town'' just like it has for me.

How am I supose to keep doing my dungeons or whatnot if this is a thing? I'm fully aware the patch is up soon and could contribute to me getting in faster, however I'm sure many would focus on the new content, then I still be stuck behind. Do you have any contribution to this? On what I should do?

I'm sorry this came off as a little rant, but please, contribute to the thread instead of saying people crying. No one will ever take that serious, ever.

[Sandpark]

FFXIV is deliberately designed to not let your character grow.
Q. There's something i was curious about asking, and you know how people on the internet occasionally say "There's nothing to do in FFXIV" and i think that's because FFXIV's end game has no character growth involved in it. I assume that's because those players into that sort of character growth may enjoy it, but new players will have a hard time catching up.

A. I consider "If there's some sort of character development, the players into that stuff will enjoy it" is a faulty expression. The current FFXIV allows you to reach the level cap at a comparatively fast pace and players who feel they are "released from the burden of leveling a job" won't be able to enjoy the game as much if there is some sort of element that requires you to spend time on building up your character before you do other content. FFXIV has a wide range of players who all have different tastes. It's not like everyone can keep their motivation to run towards a long term goal that is extremely far away to grow their character.

I don't consider the level cap reachable at a comparable fast pace. It actually takes awhile to reach level 60. Most players have not even reached max level in this game if a recent census was accurate. The fact that an instant level 60 potion is being considered leads credence to that truth. There is already a build up to do other content with ilvl. Even more than a build up, it is a requirement. You can't do X content until your character is X sufficient. The motivation is not even there to reach for a long term goal for a big amount of players or most players would be level 60 at the max ilvl.

Q. So not having elements to "let your character grow" is intentional.

A. I feel like people who are saying there's nothing to do or they are bored, are people who prefer the "FFXI type" game where the game itself is like end content, where there are almost unlimitted amount of elements to grow your character and keep building up. I do understand their feelings, but as a game that needs to fight on the global scale and this era makes it very difficult for us to choose that railway as an option.

The same applies to how, having elements like ice and fire on your weapon and equipment is rather meaningless with our game design. If the game system has elements as a huge factor and let's say you face a boss who is weak against a certain element. Those who don't have the actions or weapons that are effective will need to start back from re-learning a certain move or go get that fire weapon that melts the boss. That being said, this is actually really fun if you get into it. You feel like you're getting stronger as you work hard for it and you feel more satisfaction after beating that boss with your new weapon. However, you need to put in a lot of time before you fight this single boss and if the next patch adds a boss with a different weakness, you have to start from scratch and learn another move and go get that weapon that the boss is weak against.

If this continues to go on, there will be a moment where you lose focus and at one point you collapse. That sort of game system is highly addictive with fear and uplift alongside each other with the merit where it's harder to get bored because it forces you to continue spending most of your time. But, people nowadays don't have that time anymore. If FFXIV had that old school type system, with how busy i am now, i wouldn't be able to play the game. I'm not saying it's outdated, and the coming era might prefer those types of games and they still have a potential to succeed by changing the business scheme, but like i said before, it just doesn't fit FFXIV.

That doesn't mean we aren't doing anything. Like the Zodiac weapons and anima weapons, we'd like to implement a "time to win" type route, but that will not be the pillar of the game, not in FFXIV at least. This is just an imagination, but 10 years into the future we might shift into a team consisted of members who all truly love FFXIV and we might take our risk to release an expansion with that kind of character development involved in it, but at the moment it's impossible.

The content itself is what makes a player feel bored or excited, not the reward. The reward is the validation after the boredom or excitement which either feels good or not so good. The growing want is not a XI only theme. It is the core of an rpg, if you stop growing, you basically beat the game.

Why do people unsubscribe from an mmorpg if it is a good mmorpg overall? They feel they cannot progress or grow further in an area they like.

The element discussion is different but the same as we have now. If you don't have X ability from questing or have it unlocked from a sub job you either perform sub optimally or not enough at all. If you don't have X ilvl you can't do optimal or sometimes can't even access content at all. Strict rotations and dodging mechanics add a different kind of difficulty. Only here you can no longer powerlevel it like in previous Final Fantasies due to most content being level and ilvl capped. So if your reflexes are not up to par, that player will have a lot of frustration coming up.

Q. So you're saying, not all the current players want a strong character build element in the game.

A. Even if we did change our policy, starting with new players having a hard time getting into the game, a majority of the current players will also be like "I was only able to keep playing because of the current system!" and the problem is, those people don't raise their voices and log in normally or just fade out after getting bored of the game. We need to watch out for those players with no voices. With the feed back, data from the logs, the duration of subs for each player in mind, it's a part of my job to balance the demand of the player base. You can't run an MMO with just "esthesiography", so it's like studying everyday and i'm always being sandwiched by both sides. I personally have an interest in trying out various things, but that by itself will just be my ego.
Back when we released "A Realm Reborn", it was a one shot deal so i looked at the market and situation then designed the game to revive FFXIV, but even now, it's not like i can just make 100% of what i'd like to design in this world of FFXIV, so i'm looking at the balance in between.
Not having an endless element to build on your character is intentional and it's designed so you build up your item level instead. You don't obtain that by gaining experience points. You can clear content, take one step at a time to gradually get stronger, or skilled players can challenge harder content to run in front of everyone else. After reaching as far as you can go, it's true there might be nothing for you to do. In that case you can play a different job, craft or gather or play other games while you wait for the next patch which is no problem at all. We have kept that stance from the beginning and it's the core of FFXIV, so we have no intentions of changing that in the future. Of course, we do understand you will get bored of refreshing your item level at one point, but no matter what sort of game design you choose, you'll eventually get bored. I personally want to present a speech on this topic if i have the opportunity because it's such a deep subject, but today i'll finish it here.
For further development of the game, we are okay with adding totally new attractions such as using a huge area to explore or creating an area where you get one shotted unless you take the enemies out one by one, even if you have the best gear, but we aren't in the stages to place this in the center as the core of the game.

But there is an endless element here in ilvl and relics. People think XI was endless elements? Regardless of what content came if you had Black Belt on monk, that slot was persistently filled through a majority of the game. Relics in this game is the closest thing to that notion but even better because you can power it up. Black Belt is better because it something you got for not only investing a ton of time but conquering difficult content.

You do gain experience by building your ilvl unless you are at level cap.

Yoshi, I love you. And you do understand alot of the crux. But people get bored from repeating content over and over awaiting novelty content unless maybe there is way to keep progressing. The progressing part is where you have the divide between casual and hardcore.

You give substantial progression you satisfy the hardcore. The deeper and longer lasting it is, the further a casual has to go to reach that point. If it goes to far, the casual become unsatisfied.

So you tell me. Is there a way to satisfy all audiences? On the whole I say no. You can't take the core audience of Dragon Age and convert them into Dark Souls and vice versa.

Your hardcore at least in my opinion, want something besides the current ilvl. Whether that is horizontal progress, merits, or just longer lasting phases between ilvl refreshes probably varies from player to player.Personally I'd give the hardcore a unique BIS relic weapon and armors that is based around defeating and achieving goals in the most challenging content while the casual continue as now. The only thing wrong with that is. What is the point besides getting stronger in the most difficult content, raids. It's not like having an ilvl 2000 weapon is going to allow you to do things in the game you couldn't before besides solo stuff. Nothing worthwhile is worth soloing in Eorzea since most things are instanced.

They could solo Odin in the Fate?

[Istaru]

This is what I fear : The "new era" contains a lot of "fast-food" MMO players. They chose the last hyped game, faceroll it as much as they can, and leave en masse when the next hype starts. So, from my point of view, Yoshi-P is doing everything he can to please people who will quit the game as soon as the MMO fashion shifts...while displeasing most veteran MMO players, who will leave because the lack of required dedication will prevent them from building a real connection with their character.

I share this feeling. What you stated is also compounded by how this game is almost meant to only be played a few months out of the year and their focus is on getting people to try the game. They need to put more effort into giving them a reason to keep playing the game.

[Nama]

This is quite depressing news. Maybe its time to reevaluate if "modern" MMOs in this day and age are really what I'm looking for or at very least readjust my expectations of where this game is going.

[Sandpark]

I may not like everything Yoshi does but he has made a solid game within the frameworks of a modern mmo. Modern mmos cater to the casual to midcore. You can see it in most other mmos. Account wide perks, world battle scaling, easy to jump in and out of. Yoshi is not the devil.

The pickings are slim for the other style of game usually relegated to playing older mmos or the few old fashioned mmos coming out. I used to bash my head against the wall when I 1st realized the reality of the genre. But fighting it is futile, so I learned to only play when I am feeling the desire and hop to and fro between games.

[SendohJin]

"You will be bored by any system in the long run, so let's keep the one you're already bored with"...yep, totally makes sense.
Or maybe they could, you know...build a different system for each expansion, so by the time you get bored, the system will change...

you have no idea the cost of doing that. and what if the new system bombs like Diadem?

[Mimilu]

I don't get why ppl should be angry since yoshida said the truth, old gen MMOs don't cut it at all. I mean look no further than wildstar you have the proof.

Yeah but Wildstar was just some no-name MMO. Old Gen + No Name will only draw in just the MMO-scene.
But this is a Final Fantasy game. A large chunk of players came for the name alone. FearTheOldBlood is a very good example of this. SE would have a far easier time going old gen.

[Thayos]

Yeah but Wildstar was just some no-name MMO. Old Gen + No Name will only draw in just the MMO-scene.

I've seen this rebuttal a few times, and I profoundly disagree with this line of thinking.

The Final Fantasy franchise clearly isn't the invincible juggernaut it used to be. Yes, the name still carries weight, but not so much in the MMO-sphere. MMORPGs are perpetually competing for a niche demographic of gamers, and those of us in this sphere are greatly exposed to the upcoming titles. Wildstar got TONS of press and publicity as a cool new game that would cater to our old-school needs. Heck, back when ARR launched, it seemed like half the posts in the forums were about how Wildstar was going to crush FFXIV.

We all know how that worked out.

Would more people have tried Wildstar had it been a Final Fantasy game? For sure. But not as many as you'd think if the game still had a weird cartoony art style and grindy old-school mechanics, because today's core MMO demographic doesn't want that... and, to them, Final Fantasy isn't a sacred cow.

Wildstar failed because most MMORPG players don't want to return to that kind of gameplay.

[Vaer]

This is quite depressing news. Maybe its time to reevaluate if "modern" MMOs in this day and age are really what I'm looking for or at very least readjust my expectations of where this game is going.

Seems like a lot of games are going down the simplifying route recently. Just a sign of the times really. Most of the ones with the balls to attempt/advertise customization and depth are the crowdfunded ones.

[Khemorex]

snip

I dont mind if people want new stuff , but to say everything is *crap* or *ridiculous* is just a personal opinion , and does not represent the community in any way.

thats why react this way ^^

edit : theres to many experts on the forums these days :P (like u know to many cooks are bad to) :P