war nerfs(srs bznz pls)

[Brian_]

As a DRK and PLD, let me pat you on the back for having to choose to refill a good chunk of HP or TP every minute.
For the sake of balance, I think all tanks should have such a skill. It's not fair for WAR to be the only one to suffer such a huge burden.
I suppose that's the only difficult choice you have to make.

But if that's the case, maybe you should stay away from PLD and DRK, no ?
After all, having to chose to do damage or apply an additionnal effect, where to spend your Dark Arts on, should you pop sheltron to use Swipe on CD or should you save it, how many GCD I have before needing to reapply my tank stance...all of these might just blow your mind.

Right, just like WARs have to choose whether to apply Path, Eye, or just push more potency and enmity with BB. Or, if they should just Infuriate on CD rather than hold it for Berserk due to alignment and up-time issues. Or, if they should fracture for the potential small potency gain despite the GCD and stack mapping issues if can create or solve. Or, if they really need to eat the huge penalties of Defiance to survive something.

I've played more PLD than WAR. WAR is by far a more complex and decision based job. Aside from the moments where you are trying to fit in a 9 GCD triple FC while juggling movement mechanics, DRK is a more challenging mechanical job but it's not some puzzle of decision making or GCD optimization like WAR is. If you think MP management is actually a thing on DRK, you don't play the job well enough to comment on it.

Being able to refill a lot of HP is not a "minor" survivability boost. Nor being able to pop 3 Fell Cleave during berserk a minor DPS increase.

The difference you get from using Equilibrium / Blood Bath / Path / IB while Berserked vs. not Berserked is small. At best, you might give your healer 1 GCD that they might not've had if you didn't sync those things with Berserk. So, your original statement touting the survivability bonus of WAR's offensive buffs is blatant exaggeration. Berserk syncing is not going to save you from anything that would normally kill you.

And really, 1 stack every 90/120 seconds that might not even matter. That is the only difference between the offensive potential of the defensive CDs between the three tanks. That's hardly a big deal.

But fights are scripted, so you'll know when you can stay in Deliverance and when you need to switch back to Defiance. So, depending on the situation, you can have enough mitigation, then switching to a huge DPS burst on the fly. As a job design, you're not denied one because of the other.

And your overall DPS will still be mediocre because you are trading it off for mitigation while in Defiance.

And Berserk, Deliverance and Storm's Path are just for show ?

I suppose no Fell Cleave, then ?

Ok ok, you're right. If a WAR stays 100% in Defiance, so no Fell Cleave, and never use Unchained to negate its penalty, yes, its damage will be lower than PLD...

I compared their basic combos to show the fundamental gap in potencies and why Maim exists.

Yea, I didn't include Berserk or Deliverance. I also didn't include SwO's AA bonus or Blood Weapon. Yea, I didn't include FC. I also didn't include the massive DoT potency DRK gets from Salted Earth and Scourge or their numerous oGCDs vs. WAR's single oGCD. Those are not directly relevant to why Maim is balanced.

It's really interesting because, you'll either side with "Look at how WAR is awesome" or "WAR is just ok" depending on if people praise or look down on it.

Oh, and by the way, OF is not the only place where WAR is considered better that the other two tanks. It's also like that in the dev team.

WAR is obviously a really strong tank. If you were actually providing facts about WAR rather than spewing lies and misinformation, I would have nothing to say. But, you are just saying a bunch of exaggerated or incorrect garbage again.

[Reynhart]

But, you are just saying a bunch of exaggerated or incorrect garbage again.

No, I'm still only saying that WAR is "better". What bothers me is that WAR skills were arbitrary made different compared to every other job in the game, just to push it a little further.

[Brian_]

No, I'm still only saying that WAR is "better". What bothers me is that WAR skills were arbitrary made different compared to every other job in the game, just to push it a little further.

No, you have said on multiple occasions that WAR has no trade offs. That is wrong.

And, you've spoken about the defensive synergy of WAR's offensive buffs like it's actually something that really matters. It's not. And, like I already explained, the only difference in the offensive synergy of WAR's defensive buffs is that you get 1 stack every 90/120s. That is hardly something to call foul over.

[Reynhart]

No, you have said on multiple occasions that WAR has no trade offs. That is wrong.

Having to chose what GCD you will use is not a "trade-off". WAR has higher burst DPS than PLD and DRK, equal or higher average DPS, higher burst healing, and utility that will always ensure a spot. It's accepted that PLD should have noticeable lower DPS than WAR "Because it's a PLD". Tell me one thing were WAR is noticeably lower than the other two "Because it's a WAR" ?

And, you've spoken about the defensive synergy of WAR's offensive buffs like it's actually something that really matters. It's not. And, like I already explained, the only difference in the offensive synergy of WAR's defensive buffs is that you get 1 stack every 90/120s. That is hardly something to call foul over.

It's not just "one stack every 90/120s", it's the ability to use an additionnal Fell Cleave during Berserk which, by your own claim, is a huge part of their DPS...While still allowing them to keep their DPS stance a little longer, like PLD and DRK can do.
It's also the ability to boost its healing really high, creating a better synergy between its own skill and a cross-class skill as early as 2.0. This just by having the only (IIRC) skill that increases Attack Power instead of damage.

I don't necessarily think it is (personally I like 60 PLD), but if it is so bad that you would honestly consider running double WAR over a single Pally, there is something intimately wrong with Paladin, not with Warrior.

You won't run double WAR for several reasons. But, let's suppose than stacking the same job would have no effect on the LB, and that you could apply two Storm's Eye at the same time. I'm pretty sure double WAR would have been a thing.

But again, PLD and DRK are not so bad, WAR is just better.
Which doesn't prevent me from playing PLD and DRK more than WAR because I like their playstyle more.

[Sarcatica]

You won't run double WAR for several reasons. But, let's suppose than stacking the same job would have no effect on the LB, and that you could apply two Storm's Eye at the same time. I'm pretty double WAR would have been a thing.

But again, PLD and DRK are not so bad, WAR is just better.
Which doesn't prevent me from playing PLD and DRK more than WAR because I like their playstyle more.

So you are saying that the top FCs and raid groups aren't capitalizing on the double WAR comp? The LB generation is by far not even an issue. There are just what PLD/DRK can do and WAR can't do. Dungeons and 24-mans aside, PLD/DRK are pretty damn useful for the current raid content. 99% of the speed runs logs aren't even bringing double WARs (they do DRK/WAR comp for the most part), what makes you think double WARs is such a godly comp? Can you even substantiate your points, because they are oozing out 'opinions' and not actually tested and verified?


Speedruns: https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/10#metric=speed

[Brian_]

Having to chose what GCD you will use is not a "trade-off". WAR has higher burst DPS than PLD and DRK, equal or higher average DPS, higher burst healing, and utility that will always ensure a spot. It's accepted that PLD should have noticeable lower DPS than WAR "Because it's a PLD". Tell me one thing were WAR is noticeably lower than the other two "Because it's a WAR" ?

My original line was "WAR is not a class about having your cake and eating it to." Do you know what that means? If you don't, then you shouldn't quote it and reply to it. WAR is a class where you cannot have maximized DPS and mitigation at the same time. You choose between the two. You trade mitigation for DPS and vice versa. That is not having your cake and eating it too.

You replied to that by literally saying that picking between two awesome things is not a trade-off. No, that is literally the definition of a trade off. If you want to post on an English forum, you should really try to understand the language first.

So that has nothing to do with PLD or DRK. But if you want to have that argument, then fine. I'll still humor you. PLD and DRK have better immunities than WAR. PLD has better physical mitigation and DRK has better magical mitigation. Judged independently, PLD and DRK both have higher raid mitigation than WAR does -- DRK having persistently higher raid mitigation with Delirium and Reprisal and PLD having higher one-time raid mitigation with DV. And, because of their equally valuable unique utility, just like WAR, they will be ensured a raid spot.

It's not just "one stack every 90/120s", it's the ability to use an additionnal Fell Cleave during Berserk which, by your own claim, is a huge part of their DPS...While still allowing them to keep their DPS stance a little longer, like PLD and DRK can do.
It's also the ability to boost its healing really high, creating a better synergy between its own skill and a cross-class skill as early as 2.0. This just by having the only (IIRC) skill that increases Attack Power instead of damage.

It doesn't boost your healing really high. It is a very marginal healing boost that ultimately makes very little difference in a real fight.

Losing a Berserked FC hurts but in terms of an entire fight, it will only amount to a small DPS drop from the WAR. So really, it's hardly that big a deal.

But this is exactly my point. These are in reality and practice very small things but you are blowing them up to be some game breaking issue or difference maker. It isn't. And, it's hardly why PLD and DRK are considered weaker tanks that don't work well together.