war nerfs(srs bznz pls)

[Exoxo]

Ok lets discuss this by comparing both skills directly (they arent all that different)

Defiance:
- Increases Maximum HP by 25%
- Decreases damage dealt by 25% and increases enmity
- Increases healing magic by 20%

Shield Oath:
- Reduces damage received by 20%
- Reduces damage dealt by 15% and increases enmity (remember that WARs damage is innately better than PLDs)

The HP/healing increase and damage reduction essentially do the same thing, with the difference being how much the HP bar moves about, and even with the extra damage loss a WAR would still deal as much/more damage than a PLD in tank stance, without taking into consideration Unchained (which we should be). You mention that using unchained means you can't IB, however that is not an excuse, as the skill still exists, and if you have infuriate up you can use both. No matter what way you look at it, the WARs overall combo makes Defiance a better stance to be in than Shield oath, and yet it also gets the perk of oGCD and no cost to enter (This was completely fine before deliverance existed as the best you could do was turn the stance off, now the stances are not far off PLD, except they are better for some reason).

I won't even both comparing Deliverance and Sword Oath.

Also your complaint about "if you are in defiance you lose all that crit and can't fell cleave".... are you serious?

I think the question here is are you serious?
It's not just crit, it's effectively 30% damage loss and no fell cleave, you clearly don't understand how much that one move alone contributes to War's overall dps.

Is War a highly effective MT? Yes.
Are it's cds very powerful? Yes.
But there is a cost, yes unchained is a thing to temp reduce the 30% down to 5%, yes infuriate into IB is a thing, but do you know how important that is for their DPS?
No one sits in tank stance the full fight, In Sho Pld loses 15% and some bonus autos, with Grit, Drk loses 20% and Blood weapon, War loses 30%, Fell Cleave and potential bonus crits
You make it sound like War can just walk around firing off these skills when it pleases, it can't. You only get so many stacks to use over the course of a fight and it'd be in your best interest to use as many as possible on Cleaving bosses and Decimating adds otherwise your argument about their dps is a moot point.
As I said you cannot have both.

[Brian_]

Seriously, people need to stop talking if their posts are just littered with complete ignorance.

WAR is not a class about having your cake and eating it, too. It is a class with versatility based on trade-offs.

WAR's DPS in Defiance was already lower than DRK's DPS in Grit. After PLD's potency and ShO buffs, I'm fairly certain that PLD's ShO DPS is also higher if not on par despite them having a real advantage in mitigation.

A WAR's DPS will not be great if they are forced into Defiance. Just take a look at any top-end WAR parse and you will see that it's only possible because they are either 100% Deliverance or close to it. And, to the people discounting FC's relevance, it is the biggest contributor to a WAR's DPS by a huge margin. The fact that they lose access to it while in Defiance is a big deal. I believe for a fight like A8S FC is typically in the range of 25%~30% of a WAR's overall DPS. The next highest weapon-skill / ability is probably around 10~15%. So, on top of losing the 5% damage bonus from Deliverance, the crit bonus from stacks, and suffering a 25% damage reduction from Defiance, they lose the ability to use an ability that constitutes 25~30% of their DPS and replace it with something with 200 less potency that frequently can't be used with 100% stack efficiency.

And, without Defiance, a WAR's mitigation kit is definitely not better than either PLD or DRK.

So no, WARs don't get to have their cake and eat it, too. That's your bias and ignorance speaking. The official forums have a notoriously bad reputation of being a place where a bunch of pretty bad players talk out of their butts about stuff they have no understanding of. Please try to be better than that.

[Reynhart]

PLD's Clemency is affected by Convalescence, which is 30% on PLD, so they can buff their own healing.

This is a dedicated healing skill...that WAR can cross-class for healing spell received.
Convalescence does not increase damage in a twisted way.

And before HW, PLD didn't even have "healing skills", while WAR could already buff Second Wind...a skill that's is even not his own.

You understand War naturally has the biggest damage penalty with Tank stance right? I think Unchained is warranted.

You remember WAR is the only tank that can permanently apply at leaset +32% damage increase, right ? And skills that ignores, Defiance damage penalty ?

WAR is not a class about having your cake and eating it, too. It is a class with versatility based on trade-offs.

"Am I doing this awesome thing or that awesome thing" is not a question of "trade-off".
Having an offensive buff that boost survivability or a defensive buff that boost DPS is just an arbitrary decision to make WAR more powerful than its counterpart.

[Brian_]

"Am I doing this awesome thing OR that awesome thing" is not a question of "trade-off".

And PLD and DRK use their defensive buffs for offensive functionality, too. Because both prefer to be taking hits for procs, if you know you don't need to save your defensive CDs for something, you use them to allow yourself to stay in SwO or Grit-less with less healer stress / sacrifice.

That's really no different from the minor survivability boost from Berserk or the 1 stack you gain from just using RI or Vengeance.

One is using defense to fuel offense. The other is using offense to fuel defense. I guess they should lock dCDs like Rampart and Shadow Skin to tank stances because a tank utilizing cross synergy between offense and defense is inexcusable.

And again, you might want to take some time to understand balance before you open your mouth about it. WAR has Maim. They also have lower weapon skill potencies to balance it against stuff like Darkside and FoF.

WAR: 150, 190/200, 250/270/280
DRK: 150, 220/250, 260(400 with DA)/280/300
PLD: 150, 200/230, 260/350/240(640 including DoT)

[Sarcatica]

In a game where so much reliable mitigation is wasted is what WAR is at atm. Because there is no instance where WAR tanking most tank busters alone is anywhere feasible and popular, and the fact that tank swaps exist which is easy enough to execute, WAR is allowed to become that 5th DPS that has 2 main utilities to boost damage/decrease incoming damage at will. The day where SE changes WAR will pretty much affect the dynamic of the rest of the jobs, just like how Virus was changed back in T5.

WAR can't hope to be the tank PLD/DRK are and likewise, PLD/DRK can't hope to be the tank WAR is, in the current patch.

[Reynhart]

image

As a DRK and PLD, let me pat you on the back for having to choose to refill a good chunk of HP or TP every minute.
For the sake of balance, I think all tanks should have such a skill. It's not fair for WAR to be the only one to suffer such a huge burden.
I suppose that's the only difficult choice you have to make.

But if that's the case, maybe you should stay away from PLD and DRK, no ?
After all, having to chose to do damage or apply an additionnal effect, where to spend your Dark Arts on, should you pop sheltron to use Swipe on CD or should you save it, how many GCD I have before needing to reapply my tank stance...all of these might just blow your mind.

That's really no different from the minor survivability boost from Berserk or the 1 stack you gain from just using RI or Vengeance.

Being able to refill a lot of HP is not a "minor" survivability boost. Nor being able to pop 3 Fell Cleave during berserk a minor DPS increase.

Please, lock Rampart and Sentinel behind ShO...and remove the wrath/abandon conversion when switching stances, too.

And, without Defiance, a WAR's mitigation kit is definitely not better than either PLD or DRK.

But fights are scripted, so you'll know when you can stay in Deliverance and when you need to switch back to Defiance. So, depending on the situation, you can have enough mitigation, then switching to a huge DPS burst on the fly. As a job design, you're not denied one because of the other.

It's really interesting because, you'll either side with "Look at how WAR is awesome" or "WAR is just ok" depending on if people praise or look down on it.

Oh, and by the way, OF is not the only place where WAR is considered better that the other two tanks. It's also like that in the dev team.

[ADVSS]

Actually, making the warrior meta a "thing" to begin with is very stupid. The 3.0 additions really didnt pillage warriors gameplay style as horribly bad as some other jobs, and good for it. They were dropping defiance and capping their dps well before the expansion hit, this other stance allowing them to do it without losing all their stacks, was gorgeous. If you ask me, where they "went wrong" was actually pushing warrior meta on the other tanks. But you can assume whatever. There is no sane reason a mt should have to drop tank stance just cuz they need mp or wont be able to pop cooldowns, or to compete with stance-dancing tank on the other end of the spectrum. Yes the warrior job has eyes on it like scholar, its literally written in the interview, as per the OP. You look at jobs like bard, who had their whole gameplay style transformed overnight, to deal more damage, and warrior gets an actual REAL stance instead of havin to risk losing stacks, which seemed to be fine enough 2.0. I applaud the additions to the job, they were what i consider good additions, and synergized well, but as far as pushing the other two tanks to have to play like a warrior, even though they can never be a warrior? Thats probably what I would consider, the wrong way to balance things.

[Reynhart]

And again, you might want to take some time to understand balance before you open your mouth about it. WAR has Maim. They also have lower weapon skill potencies to balance it against stuff like Darkside and FoF.

And Berserk, Deliverance and Storm's Path are just for show ?

WAR: 150, 190/200, 250/270/280
DRK: 150, 220/250, 260(400 with DA)/280/300
PLD: 150, 200/230, 260/350/240(640 including DoT)

I suppose no Fell Cleave, then ?

Ok ok, you're right. If a WAR stays 100% in Defiance, so no Fell Cleave, and never use Unchained to negate its penalty, yes, its damage will be lower than PLD...

[ADVSS]

And Berserk, Deliverance and Storm's Path are just for show ?

I suppose no Fell Cleave, then ?

Ok ok, you're right. If a WAR stays 100% in Defiance, so no Fell Cleave, and never use Unleash to negate its penalty, yes, its damage will be lower than PLD...

isnt ignoring the damage penalty like adding 25% to its potency in comparison? Alright, ugh maim has to be refreshed. yeah! Thats a dps loss, it adds a damage boost. while were at it, lets end that boost with either a 10% raid wide incoming damage reduction, or for the love of god a 10% damage from all my attacks buff. MAN this is so hard, im losing damage just thinking about it all, i mean a combo offering a buff and a deuff or two full damage buffs is so hard, mang im losing damage not butchers blocking! you guys dont understand my parse hurts so much when i have to boost my damage with non enmity combos!

[Reynhart]

you guys dont understand my parse hurts so much when i have to boost my damage with non enmity combos!

WAR's life is so hard...we should offer them cookies