war nerfs(srs bznz pls)

[ADVSS]

Reynhart: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F4qzPbcFiA

[Sarcatica]

WAR doesn't have immediate access to mitigating big damage like PLD/DRK. This tier illustrates the ease of having a PLD/DRK to solo tank Final Punch-beam in A8S, WAR can't do it. WAR just doesn't have vast amount of on-demand CDs to use in a frequent tank buster back to back, which 100% guarantees some other ways to work around the tank busters, tank swaps being the next easiest.

In this sense, WAR has the most trade-offs to do, whether to deal DPS or to mitigate damage. Ask WAR to tank all the Uplander Dooms in A7S and the aftermath, I guarantee you that he would be struggling to pull off big damage throughout the fight. Ask WAR to tank full in A5S, his DPS will drop a bunch or your healers will hate him for life for Deliverance tanking.

So, what kind of contents are you talking about WAR being "god" at tanking?

[Reynhart]

WAR doesn't have immediate access to mitigating big damage like PLD/DRK. This tier illustrates the ease of having a PLD/DRK to solo tank Final Punch-beam in A8S, WAR can't do it.

Vengeance, Thrill Of Battle, Raw Intuition...and Infuriate if used to pop Inner Beast if you screwed your stack management. Waiting a GCD is hardly "not on demand".
It can also heals a lot of HP every 60s, and even more every 120s. And can still apply a permanent 10% damage reduction if needed.

Ask WAR to tank all the Uplander Dooms in A7S and the aftermath, I guarantee you that he would be struggling to pull off big damage throughout the fight.

Yes still putting higher numbers than a PLD doing the same.

[Sarcatica]

Vengeance, Thrill Of Battle, Raw Intuition...and Infuriate if used to pop Inner Beast if you screwed your stack management. Waiting a GCD is hardly "not on demand".
It can also heals a lot of HP every 60s, and even more every 120s. And can still apply a permanent 10% damage reduction if needed.

Then I'd love to see how you survive the 2 Final Punches solo in A8S.

If WAR is such a "god" at tanking, why can't WAR solo all the tank buster, amirite? Guys?

Like I get it that WAR is great at a lot of things, especially in dungeons. But it doesn't 100% apply to raid environment. WAR had a huge edge on A4S due to the 2min CDs coinciding with the Pentacle tank busters perfectly. But in the current tier, WAR isn't great at solo-ing tank busters.

[Brian_]

Great way to put words into people's mouth. You're the only one to make the shortcut that if WAR is better than PLD and DRK, then double WAR has to be the best, only to give the great revelation that it's not. We're fully aware that it's not, thank you.

My point was quite clear. If WARs are so overpowered, why are PLDs and DRKs preferred over them? The gap is obviously not that large and PLDs and DRKs have some clear advantages over WARs.

how far is the overstatement though? I dont think theyre awful or broken, but theyre not gonna negate tank stance penalties, pop a 50% attack power increase and heal for double in an instant,either. clemency<equlibrium

PLD is about ~200 DPS behind WAR.

DRK is about ~100 DPS behind WAR.

Given current raid DPS numbers and the nature of DPS checks in the content, that gap in DPS is quite small.

PLDs still have Hallowed Ground and it's still really, really, really good and SIGNIFICANTLY better than Holmgang. In A8S prog, you can do things like HG and eat both hidden mines while baiting a double drill or eat final punch + apocalypse + final beam. Living Dead is obviously a bit worse than HG but still significantly better than Holmgang.

Someone called Divine Veil worthless earlier but anyone who has ever had to coordinate raid mitigation in early progression knows its value. A 3k HP shield on a 120s CD that stacks with other shielding? Amazing. It's basically a second Adlo + Deploy that you can mix in to mitigate sequential raid damage that demands mitigation like A8S P3/P5's short needle, prey, long needle stack, short needle, J-kicks and J-storm. Reprisal is also incredibly useful because it stacks with Path and has great coverage for extended sequential raid damage. Stuff like A7S spark spam, A8S P3/P5/P7.

And, while my opinion on Clemency is that it's garbage, after discussing it with some top raiding tanks, I reluctantly have to admit it's not complete garbage in progression. For example, in A8S P4 and P6 where its use isn't a DPS loss it's actually quite good. Healers will be occupied with mechanics they can't afford to fail so PLD has that opening. SS is also great in the same situations.

And, as for their overall mitigation kits, PLD and DRK are better. It's just that people who never clear content where you really need to milk every drop out of your mitigation kit while sustaining high DPS often vastly exaggerate how good WAR is. Their argument for how good WAR mitigation is always comes back to IB. If you actually played WAR in the aforementioned context, you would know how big of a drawback using IB is. You lose the chance to FC, are stuck with a massive damage penalty for 10s (which you can't negate with Unchained unless you Infuriate -- which means you lose a Berserked FC), and make subsequent tank swaps less efficient (for example, if you IB an Uplander Doom in A7S you are stuck in Defiance while the other tank is trying to swap). Take a quick look at how often the top raiding WARs use IB. Almost never is your answer. So, without gimping your DPS to use IB, WARs are really left with only Vengeance and Thrill (RI is ideally reserved for triple FC). Earlier someone mentioned how WAR has no trade-offs anymore. That's just wrong. Their DPS maximization is all about trade-offs. On the other hand, DRK and PLD still have access to their full CD kits while maximizing DPS.

[Reynhart]

Then I love to see how you survive the 2 Final Punches solo in A8S.

If WAR is such a "god" at tanking, why can't WAR solo all the tank buster, amirite? Guys?

And how does a PLD do it ?

It's just that people who never clear content where you really need to milk every drop out of your mitigation kit while sustaining high DPS often vastly exaggerate how good WAR is.

We're not exaggerating how good WAR is or how bad PLD and DRK can be. The problem is that the meta in this game aims for absolute optimum.
100 or 200 DPS is not much, you're right, but it's still undoubtedly better.
Did they decide to make STR even sligthly higher than VIT for AP on tanks (0.5 vs 0.45 for example) you can be sure than everyone would still bitch about VIT tank as being weak and lazy.

PLD and DRK are perfectly viable for anything, and the better solution might just be to change the mentality, but that's something that will never happen.

[Duelle]

But, that's also been completely irrelevant outside of early A4S progression.

Shit rolls downhill. That's something you should also be familiar with. Lest we forget, during 2.0 people were convinced that WAR couldn't tank HM Titan and Garuda when the problem was Turn 5. You can't dismiss imbalances at the edge of progression because that trickles down to the guys running Sastasha for the first time. The problem at the top thus becomes everyone's problem.

Edit: just saw your post above. Thank you for the interesting read.

[Brian_]

And how does a PLD do it ?

Extremely easily.

They HG one rotation of Final Punch --> Apocalypse --> Final Beam.

The next rotation they use Sheltron + Rampart + Sentinel.

This is why you don't run your mouth about stuff you don't know or talk about balance you can't understand.

[Brannigan]

I think that (for the current expansion and content) just making all three tank debuffs -10% damage and making them stack would get close enough to "balance." There's no reason drk/pld shouldn't be more viable for early progression and it would even out a few weird spots like physical busters being so much weaker versus a pld/war team.

Really they need to nerf Deployment Tactics too but that's just because I think they're balancing raid busters around it. I think the devs realized how ridiculous Mantra/Conva/Defiance Adlo shield spreads are and so they made the final J Kick do a billion goddamn damage.

[Brian_]

I think that (for the current expansion and content) just making all three tank debuffs -10% damage and making them stack would get close enough to "balance." There's no reason drk/pld shouldn't be somewhat viable for early progression and it would even out a few weird spots like physical busters being so much weaker versus a pld/war team.

Really they need to nerf Deployment Tactics too but that's just because I think they're balancing raid busters around it. I think the devs realized how ridiculous Mantra/Conva/Defiance Adlo shield spreads are and so they made the final J Kick do a billion goddamn damage.

But DV + Mantra + Succor would be more shielding unless the Adlo crits. I don't think SE balances raid busters around crit Adlo Deploys.

And like I said earlier, a lot of raid comps are not viable during early progression. It's not just DRK + PLD. Any comp without an int debuff will have to work a lot harder especially if we get a fight with the eHP margins of A8S again. A terrible DPS comp like MNK + MCH + SMN + BLM probably wouldn't clear the early progression DPS checks in Midas, either (unless they're some of the best DPS players in the world). WHM + AST would've had problems with A8S, too. Some comps just don't work.

Shit rolls downhill. That's something you should also be familiar with. Lest we forget, during 2.0 people were convinced that WAR couldn't tank HM Titan and Garuda when the problem was Turn 5. You can't dismiss imbalances at the edge of progression because that trickles down to the guys running Sastasha for the first time. The problem at the top thus becomes everyone's problem.

Edit: just saw your post above. Thank you for the interesting read.

PLD's balance in 3.0 was a mistake SE has since fixed. You can't keep on faulting them for their old and currently irrelevant missteps. WAR sucked before they got fixed. You don't see reasonable WARs still asking for buffs because SE messed up in the past. We can all only hope they don't make the same mistakes again but if they do, it'll have little to do with the current balance of tanks. It'll be because of something they did in 4.0.

As for examples, they are littered throughout some of my posts. I was going to repeat them again but I saw your edit. I hope that was enough.