war nerfs(srs bznz pls)

[Reynhart]

I said this topic. And, in this topic, people are painting the picture that WAR is some god of tanking while PLDs and DRKs are peasants groveling in shame. Numerous times people have said WARs have no weaknesses, no drawbacks, no flaws. Naturally double WAR comps would be better, then? Oh, wait. They aren't. PLDs and DRKs are better than WARs in ways that also guarantee them a raid comp spot.

Great way to put words into people's mouth. You're the only one to make the shortcut that if WAR is better than PLD and DRK, then double WAR has to be the best, only to give the great revelation that it's not. We're fully aware that it's not, thank you.

And no, PLD and DRK don't have a guaranteed spot in any compo. PLD or DRK have. Big difference.

Especially DRK tbh. Great utility, great damage, great mitigation. Dunno why people think that job has "trade-offs".

Actually, DRK is probably the worst designed tank. It has skills that purposely hinders other skills, like a powerful Blind AoE or an Evasion Boost, when it's main skill to refill MPs requires to get hit. It's enmity combo is also the worst since it's the lowest damage combo and has no additionnal effect on top of that.

But, hey, it's fun to play.

[Brian_]

Great way to put words into people's mouth. You're the only one to make the shortcut that if WAR is better than PLD and DRK, then double WAR has to be the best, only to give the great revelation that it's not. We're fully aware that it's not, thank you.

My point was quite clear. If WARs are so overpowered, why are PLDs and DRKs preferred over them? The gap is obviously not that large and PLDs and DRKs have some clear advantages over WARs.

how far is the overstatement though? I dont think theyre awful or broken, but theyre not gonna negate tank stance penalties, pop a 50% attack power increase and heal for double in an instant,either. clemency<equlibrium

PLD is about ~200 DPS behind WAR.

DRK is about ~100 DPS behind WAR.

Given current raid DPS numbers and the nature of DPS checks in the content, that gap in DPS is quite small.

PLDs still have Hallowed Ground and it's still really, really, really good and SIGNIFICANTLY better than Holmgang. In A8S prog, you can do things like HG and eat both hidden mines while baiting a double drill or eat final punch + apocalypse + final beam. Living Dead is obviously a bit worse than HG but still significantly better than Holmgang.

Someone called Divine Veil worthless earlier but anyone who has ever had to coordinate raid mitigation in early progression knows its value. A 3k HP shield on a 120s CD that stacks with other shielding? Amazing. It's basically a second Adlo + Deploy that you can mix in to mitigate sequential raid damage that demands mitigation like A8S P3/P5's short needle, prey, long needle stack, short needle, J-kicks and J-storm. Reprisal is also incredibly useful because it stacks with Path and has great coverage for extended sequential raid damage. Stuff like A7S spark spam, A8S P3/P5/P7.

And, while my opinion on Clemency is that it's garbage, after discussing it with some top raiding tanks, I reluctantly have to admit it's not complete garbage in progression. For example, in A8S P4 and P6 where its use isn't a DPS loss it's actually quite good. Healers will be occupied with mechanics they can't afford to fail so PLD has that opening. SS is also great in the same situations.

And, as for their overall mitigation kits, PLD and DRK are better. It's just that people who never clear content where you really need to milk every drop out of your mitigation kit while sustaining high DPS often vastly exaggerate how good WAR is. Their argument for how good WAR mitigation is always comes back to IB. If you actually played WAR in the aforementioned context, you would know how big of a drawback using IB is. You lose the chance to FC, are stuck with a massive damage penalty for 10s (which you can't negate with Unchained unless you Infuriate -- which means you lose a Berserked FC), and make subsequent tank swaps less efficient (for example, if you IB an Uplander Doom in A7S you are stuck in Defiance while the other tank is trying to swap). Take a quick look at how often the top raiding WARs use IB. Almost never is your answer. So, without gimping your DPS to use IB, WARs are really left with only Vengeance and Thrill (RI is ideally reserved for triple FC). Earlier someone mentioned how WAR has no trade-offs anymore. That's just wrong. Their DPS maximization is all about trade-offs. On the other hand, DRK and PLD still have access to their full CD kits while maximizing DPS.