It’s also all but a given that the expansion will include at least two new jobs.

[Risvertasashi]

What about a samurai that splits into tank and dps jobs like Arcanist does at 30? Have a heavily armored, defensive samurai as a tank and a lighter version with more emphasis on speed or whatever for dps.

They've said a few times that the SCH/SMN split has been very problematic. And, with the balance issues towards the end of ARR, that they couldn't really buff SMN until HW because it would also buff SCH (though they kinda did anyways).

Basically, from a design standpoint, it's so much of a headache that I don't think we're likely to see it again. It's kind of a shame it hasn't been set up in a way that lets them separate out jobs from classes more as the branching thing, to this day, seems to be a strong fantasy among a lot of players, but... it's what we've got, I guess.

tl;dr due to underlying design issues new jobs will probably be jobs only with no base class, like DRK/MCH/AST.

really now?

Well, this whole thread is pretty much wild speculation, so why not!

[ADVSS]

Well, this whole thread is pretty much wild speculation, so why not!

So much speculation in that quote now(from the interview)....do we go with "ranger" do we go with the colors? (Sam used to also wear red....) do we go by the elbst mount being used quite often?(tamer, bst?) i dont see samurai being yellow, maybe something like dancer? chemist wore yellow in ffv .... so many ways to interpret it

[Supersun]

So much speculation in that quote now(from the interview)....do we go with "ranger" do we go with the colors? (Sam used to also wear red....) do we go by the elbst mount being used quite often?(tamer, bst?) i dont see samurai being yellow, maybe something like dancer? chemist wore yellow in ffv .... so many ways to interpret it

It could likely have to do with their lines in their posing sequence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yR6UkK6KIU

The yellow ranger could represent a Dancer.
The red one could be a Berserker.
For the black one I'd say Ninja, but that already exists so maybe Thief, Ranger, Beastmaster, Scout, or some other stealth/animal related class?

[Gemina]

I haven't touched AST yet, and rarely get them as co healers in 8-man content so I don't know much about the job, but I do wonder sometimes if the imbalance I hear about them is due to it not really being compatible with the other two healers. WHM and SCH complement each other so well with their abilities, and each can take on solo healing duties in the content I have gone through thus far. Perhaps what AST needs to balance it is another healer that creates a near perfect tandem like WHM+SCH? AST+RDM or AST+DNC perhaps??

Just a thought I had.

[ADVSS]

I haven't touched AST yet, and rarely get them as co healers in 8-man content so I don't know much about the job, but I do wonder sometimes if the imbalance I hear about them is due to it not really being compatible with the other two healers. WHM and SCH complement each other so well with their abilities, and each can take on solo healing duties in the content I have gone through thus far. Perhaps what AST needs to balance it is another healer that creates a near perfect tandem like WHM+SCH? AST+RDM or AST+DNC perhaps??

Just a thought I had.

Thats what i would do, tank to complement drk/pld , not one that pushes war/sch to the wayside. though some people think we need a contender for sch/war id personally let them be the jobs they are and come up with something that would balance the assymetrical(3rd) of either role

[Duelle]

Thats what i would do, tank to complement drk/pld , not one that pushes war/sch to the wayside. though some people think we need a contender for sch/war id personally let them be the jobs they are and come up with something that would balance the assymetrical(3rd) of either role

All that does is narrow the number of possibilities for design, because you're now designing around strict paradigms instead of trying to meet a much broader requirement. It's not a good direction to take things, and I'd rather see the tanks and healers brought in line with each other over creating specified slots for them in groups. If it means WAR and SCH have to be nerfed, it's still better than designing all healers to fit into either a WHM-esque or SCH-like mold.

[ADVSS]

All that does is narrow the number of possibilities for design, because you're now designing around strict paradigms instead of trying to meet a much broader requirement. It's not a good direction to take things, and I'd rather see the tanks and healers brought in line with each other over creating specified slots for them in groups. If it means WAR and SCH have to be nerfed, it's still better than designing all healers to fit into either a WHM-esque or SCH-like mold.

I need some examples cause i feel like a the end were talking about the very same thing

edit:yeah i really think were looking at the same outcome, just a different approach. I think.

no actually i feel like i stand by my point, war/sch nerfs do nothing. when you look at sch at its arr upbringing. a dps that had a total of 5(five) healer related skills, most must haves like leeches, to complete its kit as a "healer" while ast designed from the ground up as a "healer" still has no competing points? i blame whoever designed the class, and not scholars design, sch is grea, still, and it never even made to healer until level 30, yet we should bring it down. for what? even adding the heavensward skills, its still stripped down as hell, but all standards. why? cause its WELL DESIGNED. just like from now on, any tank they make, or healer needs to be designed well, in this fashion,. not "errr ooggg we found out dis mostly dps class made healer job is really good at its limited skillset and our...replace,emt white mage/ and or replacement scholar but not really job just cant take its place. lets nerf scholar even more than the fact its entire skillset is limited, and lets nerf warrior, because whoever designed it did it well. so we can keep making not good jobs that sorta kinda do their job, but not really that well, cause its new."

there are many ways of competition, sometimes instead of outdoing the other class/.job, you have to flat out design one that does something it cant, and way better than it ever could if it tried. Giving the entire community a chance to decide what shines from these jobs is what they want to trust in, not dumbing down some jobs that do shine in what they do that the other jobs in their role dont or cant. dumbing down war or sch isnt going to do anything but allow them to come up with more of the same, boring half/astrologian half/scholar jobs, that will never be able to compete because they just cant. even after having 30 levels of a proper healer role's worth of skills before even being a -job-

[Duelle]

no actually i feel like i stand by my point, war/sch nerfs do nothing. when you look at sch at its arr upbringing. a dps that had a total of 5(five) healer related skills, most must haves like leeches, to complete its kit as a "healer" while ast designed from the ground up as a "healer" still has no competing points? i blame whoever designed the class, and not scholars design

You're already barking up the wrong tree if you're blaming AST for anything. AST is only the symptom of a bigger problem. Part of which I feel SCH is responsible for causing.

even adding the heavensward skills, its still stripped down as hell, but all standards. why? cause its WELL DESIGNED.

As far as I know, the fairy for a slight nerf and Lustrate no longer ignores the Cleric Stance penalty. That's not "stripped down".

lets nerf scholar even more than the fact its entire skillset is limited,

A healer being very powerful even with a limited skillset is actually pretty damn alarming from a design perspective.

and lets nerf warrior, because whoever designed it did it well.

Actually, it's not well designed, because anyone half-competent would have told the balance team that switches between Defiance and Deliverance need an actual penalty in the form of wrath/abandon stacks to create that semblance of decision-making (instead of the "DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS" fixation we've seen since Heavensward's launch), and to not give one tank the ability to never run out of TP in addition to higher damage potential. That's how you create the shitshow we saw with Gordias Savage, but we can have that discussion over in the tank forums.

Giving the entire community a chance to decide what shines from these jobs is what they want to trust in, not dumbing down some jobs that do shine in what they do that the other jobs in their role dont or cant. dumbing down war or sch isnt going to do anything but allow them to come up with more of the same, boring half/astrologian half/scholar jobs, that will never be able to compete because they just cant. even after having 30 levels of a proper healer role's worth of skills before even being a -job-

Leveling the playing field means you're not pressured to make new jobs to mimic existing jobs. AST came out the way it did because the playing field was not leveled. The devs should have revised how SCH and WHM were designed before even going into the expansion, much less before AST moved from the planning stage to the design stage. Had they done this, AST would then be judged by its own merits rather than by how well it can copy WHM and SCH.

Also keep in mind that Yoshida has said they're working on balance across all jobs, not just SCH and WAR.

[Gemina]

You're already barking up the wrong tree if you're blaming AST for anything. AST is only the symptom of a bigger problem. Part of which I feel SCH is responsible for causing.

SCH was here long before AST. Please don't blame SCH for AST issues. I am more inclined to believe that if AST couldn't be designed in a way that has it stand on its own two feet, it should have been left out.

A healer being very powerful even with a limited skillset is actually pretty damn alarming from a design perspective.

It's not limited. The fairy and unlimited MP pool makes up for what the SCH himself lacks.

Leveling the playing field means you're not pressured to make new jobs to mimic existing jobs. AST came out the way it did because the playing field was not leveled. The devs should have revised how SCH and WHM were designed before even going into the expansion, much less before AST moved from the planning stage to the design stage. Had they done this, AST would then be judged by its own merits rather than by how well it can copy WHM and SCH.

Again, you don't fix what's already working and AST probably should have been left on the drawing board. Paying customers have demands though, and these demands put further constraints on time along with hastened decisions. Introducing new jobs is what rocks the boat, and that's where we are at, and they are about to bring in two more? It's crazy.

Also keep in mind that Yoshida has said they're working on balance across all jobs, not just SCH and WAR.

Funny thing about balance: For one group of people, it's all cheers and shots. For another group of people, it's the start of a long depression. Which end to you think Yoshida's balance will have current SCH and WAR mains land on?

[Ceasaria]

Funny thing about balance: For one group of people, it's all cheers and shots. For another group of people, it's the start of a long depression. Which end to you think Yoshida's balance will have current SCH and WAR mains land on?

Because people are worried about the mp management and dps of the Scholar, I suggest Fairy spells cost mana which is taken directly from Scholar mana.
One of the problem is Scholar will need to be afk to keep mana...or just to run without Fairy sometimes.

But I would prefer for further fights, to have more mecanics, more ennemies to force both healers to heal