Something need to be done in how tanks acquiring Provoke

[Krazymagic]

Snip

The few times I have run into this, I was always very helpful in explaining the how and why's of provoke. Im a very easy going person. When I will vote kick is if someone is missing provoke or something similar and you try to talk to them about it and they essentially tell you to stfu or get really combative about it. To get back to the point though, what you are suggesting and what Lambdafish is suggesting are two entirely different things. He has suggested new level 50 skills be designed, you are however suggesting additional tool tips to educate the player. I think your suggestion is certainly the one that makes the most sense. I still don't think its necessary though. You ever hear the saying give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime? That philosophy applies here. If you make a game hand hold a player from a to b to c to d and all he does is mindlessly follow dots, then you arent teaching him to experiment and learn for himself. This is actually what shifted the MMO landscape in the early 2000's with the release of WoW. WoW designed an MMO that did away with the guess work, the tedium, and made a game where people skip all the text, skip the cutscenes, and then look for the quest tracker on the map on where to go. In FFXI you had to pay attention to that text because it hid important clues about where you would have to go next. Players appreciated the story more it seemed as well. I see people all the time in this game who skip every piece of text, every cutscene, and give pop up tutorials just a glance before closing them. There is plenty of tooltips in ffxiv to point out the important stuff. Im ok with the rest being discovered.

[lvlagmarink]

The few times I have run into this, I was always very helpful in explaining the how and why's of provoke. Im a very easy going person. When I will vote kick is if someone is missing provoke or something similar and you try to talk to them about it and they essentially tell you to stfu or get really combative about it.
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That philosophy applies here. If you make a game hand hold a player from a to b to c to d and all he does is mindlessly follow dots, then you arent teaching him to experiment and learn for himself.

The same things being applied regularly on how hard lesson those new tanks received from the veteran players from experimenting without knowing the fight/provoke importance.. Things like racial slur, bigotry, stfu, and so on.. Is that what you want? Making the game has a hostile community because someone's experimenting?

[FeliAiko]

Giving all Tanks (present and future) their own version of an ability (Provoke) that the developers design fights around needing is hardly hand-holding. The onus is still on the player to learn how the skill works and use it accordingly, but at least they've not inconvenienced the party by outright not having it at all. Also anytime a Job gets what's perceived to be a buff, you're always going to get a contingent crying for stuff to be given to their Job (whether justified or not), so by that logic SE should never aim to change things just to avoid the possibility of upsetting someone.

[Krazymagic]

The argument we are having here is one of philosophy, and we will never see eye to eye. If every tank had their own provoke all along as healers do with raise, I wouldn't really care. The focus of my point, and my argument here as a whole, is on making design changes to the game for reasons that I feel are largely unnecessary. The problem is not that the game has some flaw, but that a minority of tanks are failing to properly equip themselves. Some of us blame the game for this failing, due to lack of educating the player, while I instead focus on the individual for not educating themselves on the game. I feel like the game strikes a good enough balance of explaining the various systems, but leaving the player to explore and find their own way, and I dont see that as a problem.

[ADVSS]

The problem is not that the game has some flaw, but that a minority of tanks are failing to properly equip themselves. Some of us blame the game for this failing, due to lack of educating the player, while I instead focus on the individual for not educating themselves on the game. I feel like the game strikes a good enough balance of explaining the various systems, but leaving the player to explore and find their own way, and I dont see that as a problem.

I have to agree with you, I mean both sides are right in a way, I guess its just nicer to blame the game design flaw than the actual individual. Its a shame that levelling classes only for the cross skills is ok with no incentive to level them further(warrior only needs gld 15 and provoke is only 7 levels away), would be nice if traits would get added to cross skills if the main job was levelled that high or something

[Centershock]

If you make a game hand hold a player from a to b to c to d and all he does is mindlessly follow dots, then you arent teaching him to experiment and learn for himself.

And this is where we fundamentally disagree on, and I'm kind of sad that this is such a small point that we'll never see eye to eye on.

Given the mechanics that are thrown at us in regards to many duties in FFXIV (whether it be EX primals, coils, or Alex Savage), Provoke is more than just optional. It is a requirement. It is clear that any help in pushing the player in the right direction to acquire such a simple skill is HAND-HOLDING in your mind. I and others here don't know how else to put it to you. This is NOT hand-holding.

If all three healing classes were given their own version of Raise, why can't all the tank classes have their own version of Provoke? I've already retired to the fact that they're not going to change their cross-class system, so why can't we have a push in the right direction with non-GLA/PLD tanks to get Provoke?

That is literally all I want. Education on a game within said game is a thing.

[Lambdafish]

I have to agree with you, I mean both sides are right in a way, I guess its just nicer to blame the game design flaw than the actual individual.

I also agree that both sides have their merits, and it does depends on whether you see this as an big enough issue or not. BUT when it comes to blaming game design flaw or the actual individual, there are flaws in both, but only one side of that can actually be fixed, which is on the game system side.

[lvlagmarink]

Let's face it, you're talking about educating players, even if the tank cares enough to look for a guide about x content that requires provoke knowing it could be hard, most guides dont even mentioned provoke in the first place because those things fall into tanks' guide category.. Hence why even if someone told that tank to swap tanking, the tank could only came up trying with brute force trying to get on top of emnity

However when that same tank was progressing from dungeon to dungeons, he was doing fine, hence the mindset of doing a fine tanking job appeared in his mindset and haven't bothered with tanking guide as of yet..

But as he tried to do that x content, all he got was a vote kick, some bigotry from fellow players and all of that gruesome thing..

[Vivi_Bushido]

When hey add level potions in 4.0. There will be officially zero excuses why not to have any cross-class skills.

[Lambdafish]

When hey add level potions in 4.0. There will be officially zero excuses why not to have any cross-class skills.

Are you suggesting that a level potion would give you every class at 60? It would only be one unless SE wants pitchforks, the best we can expect is one class at 60 and the story complete so they can go straight into the expansion. This actually gives MORE excuses, as they have skipped the learning of the cross class system and they could go into the expansion system having played the game for 5 minutes and never having opened the cross class menu.