Something need to be done in how tanks acquiring Provoke

[Centershock]

You guys sure go through great lengths to explain why the individual is incapable. Sorry, I just don't see the problem here. I think the vast majority of players figure this out relatively easy, and the tiny minority who don't, the community will fill that gap. Were talking about a small minority of players, and no guarantee that even a flashing banner accompanied by a siren would have any impact.

I'm of the mind that if you have this mentality, you probably play with a group of friends and very rarely run into this problem yourself. I am going to echo what Lambdafish said and say that you'll never see what the problem is because it's not YOUR problem, nor do I believe it's a problem you've run into.It's so easy to say that you don't see the problem because you've likely have not seen this problem as many times as many of us have. So please try not to invalidate our experiences by saying that we're going through great lengths explaining why certain individuals are, as you say, INCAPABLE.

There's a difference between incapable and ignorant. If a player is never made known about these things, we should try to inform them of how to do things. This, to me, just indicates that you would not take the time to let a tank player know that they need Provoke should you end up with them while on a duty that requires it. Instead, you'll probably tell them that they're incapable and probably to stop tanking forever.

What we're trying to do is give them less reasons to be ignorant. If it saves having to explain to new tanks that they need this, then by all means this is what we want. We want to be able to disband parties less frequently because one tank of the two didn't have this essentially required ability.

If you think that's too much to ask for because you don't see the problem, then perhaps you're the problem because you don't want this game to "hold players' hands." Yeah, no. This is not hand-holding. This is telling them vital information. Information that could easily be implemented into the game by way of tooltips or even by the NPCs who you get class quests from.

[Derio]

It's in the hall of novice as a recommended skill. They even show you how to make a macro using it.

[Centershock]

I have no problem with hint/prompts in game relative to cross class skills that are needed to play. I do have a problem however with dumbing the game down and making it easier for people.

I don't see how having the game tell you that Provoke may be a requirement for some duties equates to dumbing the game down. There are still some non-PLD tanks out there who have Provoke who are still terrible. (YMMV)

I/We just want tanks to have less excuses of not having it.

[Centershock]

It's in the hall of novice as a recommended skill. They even show you how to make a macro using it.

If that is the case (apologies that I haven't done the hall of novice as a tank, only as deeps and healer), then this discussion is essentially over.

Does the game tell new players, upon reaching level 15, that they should go talk to these Smiths?

[Krazymagic]

I want to ask what you personally lose from changing the way provoke works in the cross class system (as an example, if DRK and war got equivilent skills at lvl50), and how this QoL change is in any way a bad thing.

First I would say Ive played this game since the beta for 1.0, so we do play the same game. I main both Paladin and Scholar. I very rarely encounter a tank without provoke. In my experience this is very very rare, only a handful of times in the years ive played can I recall running into this problem. There are many other "problems" i run into that are more common this. So, lets start by stating the obvious; that the vast majority of players never have a problem here. So, the "problem" we are dealing with involves a very small minority of players who are leveling WAR and DRK 50+ without having gladiator 22. Some of us see this as something thats just going to happen, because inadequacy manifests itself in all sorts of ways in an MMO at high levels, and this is just one such way - welcome to humanity. Then there are those like yourself who see this as a real problem, and want to see a change to address it. Your proposition to address this problem is to create 2 new Level 50 abilities, one for DRK, and one for WAR that will substitute provoke. The problems with this are that 1. You are initiating changes to fix a tiny problem whose root cause is player ignorance and/or lazyness, a problem that doesnt start or end with this provoke issue. My problem is the philosphy here is flawed, and making design decisions for this reason alone is really poor game design. 2. By giving Drk and War provoke substitutes at 50, you now have a case of duplicating a skill already available. I assume you fix that by dropping provoke from the cross abilities....So now we are going to punish the vast majority who had no problem, by taking provoke away from them in their leveling process to tack it on at 50 instead. I wish SE would actually make this change just so you could see what these forums would turn into after that went live. Yes, this will mean that 100% of tanks have provoke at level 50+, so your end goal will have been reached I guess. Next the White mage and scholar will decry that they should be given a level 50 swift cast, and make a 24 page forum threads about why such a QoL change is in any way a bad thing.

Really, the best argument against this change is that there is simply no need for it. If SE decided to do a pass on cross abilities and make some adjustments, I'm fine with that, I have faith in their ability. However, just tacking in changes like this for silly reasons, like to fix a problem whose primary cause is player ignorance, is just really poor game design. You dont design new abilities and implement big changes like this just because some players are lazy or ignorant. Any game designer will instead look to address the actual problem first, which is the ignorance amongst this tiny minority...By either additional pop up tutorials or some text pop up after unlocking WAR and DRK. I dont think that this is even necessary though. You are going to ALWAYS have some issues in a big game like this with certain party members in certain encounters whose root cause is ignorance, laziness, or just poor skill. No amount of design changes will fix that.

[LaylaTsarra]

I don't see how having the game tell you that Provoke may be a requirement for some duties equates to dumbing the game down. There are still some non-PLD tanks out there who have Provoke who are still terrible. (YMMV)

I/We just want tanks to have less excuses of not having it.

I didn't say that informing people that it is a needed skill was dumbing it down. I said they should have to level Paladin to get it like we all did. I don't subscribe to making it easier by doing away with cross class leveling and simply providing that skill as a part of the role they are leveling.

[Cakekizyy]

If that is the case (apologies that I haven't done the hall of novice as a tank, only as deeps and healer), then this discussion is essentially over.

Does the game tell new players, upon reaching level 15, that they should go talk to these Smiths?

There is a quest to go there before entering Sastasha.

[lvlagmarink]

First I would say Ive played this game since the beta for 1.0, so we do play the same game. I main both Paladin and Scholar. I very rarely encounter a tank without provoke. In my experience this is very very rare, only a handful of times in the years ive played can I recall running into this problem.

You just aknowledged yourself that you havent seen those tanks-wihtout-voke in your own surrounding that resolve around you while disregarding the fact those players exist fairly common, do I need to keep spamming screenshots to make the prove? Sure do some of them are lazy/ignorant, and i'm pretty sure that's your next argument why things don't need a fix..

I do admit however it's not such a real bad issue because most contents can be done without having one hence few players to notice this, but when one is actually queueing for stuffs that needs it, especially toward the ARR's trial, lots of tanks actually don't have one and those players are new players who has yet to fully grasped how things could work. No.. It rarely or almost never happen in lv 60 contents, but I'm pretty sure when 4.0 comes with current formula on how provoke being obtained, the HW contents will suffer the same..

So now we are going to punish the vast majority who had no problem, by taking provoke away from them in their leveling process to tack it on at 50 instead. I wish SE would actually make this change just so you could see what these forums would turn into after that went live. Yes, this will mean that 100% of tanks have provoke at level 50+, so your end goal will have been reached I guess. Next the White mage and scholar will decry that they should be given a level 50 swift cast, and make a 24 page forum threads about why such a QoL change is in any way a bad thing.

How do we even get punished by such QoL stuffs? I can't even comprehend this.. It is always SE's choice anyway to resolve the issue or not, or even when this thread's successful attempt to make the change could provoke another changes, it's within SE's right to make the change.. But it is also those new tanks's right to unsub or quit being a tank.. Your conservative view toward changes should be kept within yourself.

It's in the hall of novice as a recommended skill. They even show you how to make a macro using it.

After I saw this post, i immediately went to Hall of novice, did all tank's training and talked to every NPC and has yet to come across a text telling anything about provoke or at least giving a hint about a skill where a tank could instantly be placed on top of enmity list.. The only thing I came across was how to make macros..

[Shurrikhan]

First I would say Ive played this game since the beta for 1.0, so we do play the same game. I main both Paladin and Scholar. I very rarely encounter a tank without provoke. In my experience this is very very rare, only a handful of times in the years ive played can I recall running into this problem. There are many other "problems" i run into that are more common this. So, lets start by stating the obvious; that the vast majority of players never have a problem here. So, the "problem" we are dealing with involves a very small minority of players who are leveling WAR and DRK 50+ without having gladiator 22. Some of us see this as something thats just going to happen, because inadequacy manifests itself in all sorts of ways in an MMO at high levels, and this is just one such way - welcome to humanity. Then there are those like yourself who see this as a real problem, and want to see a change to address it. Your proposition to address this problem is to create 2 new Level 50 abilities, one for DRK, and one for WAR that will substitute provoke. The problems with this are that 1. You are initiating changes to fix a tiny problem whose root cause is player ignorance and/or lazyness, a problem that doesnt start or end with this provoke issue. My problem is the philosphy here is flawed, and making design decisions for this reason alone is really poor game design. 2. By giving Drk and War provoke substitutes at 50, you now have a case of duplicating a skill already available. I assume you fix that by dropping provoke from the cross abilities....So now we are going to punish the vast majority who had no problem, by taking provoke away from them in their leveling process to tack it on at 50 instead. I wish SE would actually make this change just so you could see what these forums would turn into after that went live. Yes, this will mean that 100% of tanks have provoke at level 50+, so your end goal will have been reached I guess. Next the White mage and scholar will decry that they should be given a level 50 swift cast, and make a 24 page forum threads about why such a QoL change is in any way a bad thing.

Really, the best argument against this change is that there is simply no need for it. If SE decided to do a pass on cross abilities and make some adjustments, I'm fine with that, I have faith in their ability. However, just tacking in changes like this for silly reasons, like to fix a problem whose primary cause is player ignorance, is just really poor game design. You dont design new abilities and implement big changes like this just because some players are lazy or ignorant. Any game designer will instead look to address the actual problem first, which is the ignorance amongst this tiny minority...By either additional pop up tutorials or some text pop up after unlocking WAR and DRK. I dont think that this is even necessary though. You are going to ALWAYS have some issues in a big game like this with certain party members in certain encounters whose root cause is ignorance, laziness, or just poor skill. No amount of design changes will fix that.

[First off, no one said it had to be tacked on at 50. It can as easily be at... 22, for instance. If that's even the way we go with this.]

Now, with all the relevance this post had to Lambdafish's question, I give you this analogy:

Customer — "Can I get a sort function with this?"
Developer / other customer — *Slaps, hard.* "That'd be unnecessary!!!"

Again, what do you personally have to lose from such an, essentially, QoL change (both for tanks, and those who otherwise have to remind them that Provoke is important)?
We've seen more trivial things than this take development time.

> Revamp isn't okay, because it caters to issues necessary only for few. But, added information isn't necessary either... because there will still always be fools?...

Even if there will "ALWAYS" be some issues that stem from ignorance or laziness, why should that make mitigation of those issues inherently worthless? Sure, some things serve a better purpose in targeting the disease itself, so to speak, but you've just said the disease isn't counterable (and in some ways you make it sound damn near terminal), so what then? If that the design philosophy by which the game was made thus far, why provide the level of detail we have now, be that in quest tracking, floating combat text, or whatever else? You keep hammering this argument, but unless you're trying to establish thereby that every effort ever to try to make something more fool-proof is a fool's errand in itself, it's already tacitly understood and agreed with. How about something useful?

You mention other "problems" you experience more commonly than a tank without provoke? Can any of those be countered? Or is providing information, training, tests, records, etc., just all inherently worthless for those too?

Comments have piled up on this particular issue because it's salient; it is the only cross-class skill actually required for a given fight. It's a systemic anomaly. And it doesn't have to be.

Now, I wish more of my dps were competent. I wish my tanks wouldn't wag their mobs needlessly. I wish my healers wouldn't idle unless low on mana. But those aren't issues that individually stick out simply due to a lone irregularity among their category of systemic features or their use. But even then, I don't think most people would say "**** it"; it's an endless war anyways" over those, either. They can be mitigated, so why not do so, and improve the quality of life for the players involved?
Yes, there are more efficient amounts by which to make strides towards that purpose, but "no amount of design changes will fix that" is just playing on rhetoric of absolutes. It says (approximately) nothing.

[Lambdafish]

By giving Drk and War provoke substitutes at 50, you now have a case of duplicating a skill already available.........

.........I wish SE would actually make this change just so you could see what these forums would turn into after that went live. Yes, this will mean that 100% of tanks have provoke at level 50+, so your end goal will have been reached I guess. Next the White mage and scholar will decry that they should be given a level 50 swift cast

swiftcast is a poor comparison, raise is a better comparison. I don't think I have ever heard anyone complain about 3 classes having the exact same raise skill. In fact, imagine if SCH and AST had to cross class raise (it is an available cross class ability), because that is a very comparable scenario.

After I saw this post, i immediately went to Hall of novice, did all tank's training and talked to every NPC and has yet to come across a text telling anything about provoke or at least giving a hint about a skill where a tank could instantly be placed on top of enmity list.. The only thing I came across was how to make macros..

I did the same thing, I was really hoping it was true, but it is not. There is no mention of provoke anywhere in the hall of novice (the building or the instances)