Something need to be done in how tanks acquiring Provoke

[SendohJin]

Or people can stop being idiots? That works as well.

never in the history of humanity has that ever been possible. what makes you think it is now?

[bass9020]

never in the history of humanity has that ever been possible. what makes you think it is now?

I don't know just thought I give it a shot! Clearly people took offense to it though!

[Centershock]

Or people can stop being idiots? That works as well.

People aren't going to stop being idiots just because we tell them they should stop. If there's a place somewhere in the game tells them, as a tank class/job, that they need to get Provoke from GLA, then that gives them absolutely no excuses to be idiots. I know many of you are going to say "oh we need to stop holding their hand" or "they need to figure stuff out on their own" or something along those lines, but many of us are doing "hand-holding" already. Telling people how the fight mechanics work in EX primals or Coils (back in 2.x) when they're in DF? That's practically the same thing.

If the game could tell these people who are playing tank classes that they need to pick up Provoke from GLA (if they aren't already GLA), that's one less excuse that people won't have. "Oh I'm supposed to pick that up?" "I didn't know I had to do gladiator to 22." Yes, getting GLA to 22 is an easy fix. But if SE is not going to change this class/job thing, the game should at least clue us in. Either by tooltips (the text that explains things after you're done talking to the NPC but there's more text to go through) or directly from NPCs themselves.

[Krazymagic]

YOU can figure stuff out. A lot of people can't. They need to make their game as idiot proof as possible when 1 person's gameplay can inconvenience other people.

players are already told about cross class abilities. To unlock your job at 30 you have to level a 2nd class, this gets you used to at least mixing two classes. I simply disagree with you. I dont think they need to do anything else to educate players in this regard. I think it is fine how it is. The very few players who somehow dont get it will get it eventually, as someone in a party or an FC will inform them. Problems who's root cause is ignorance tend to sort themselves out. You could have a pop up come up for every tank that said "you should go get provoke, its very important", and you would still run into tanks on rare occasion who dont have it. People need to realize that it is OK to consider the community as one avenue to solve such problems. People who call for more and more and more hand holding just don't get it. You end up creating a player who becomes so reliant on the hand holding that when it isnt there, they are clueless. Why is there so little incentive put on the individual anymore? The reason you run into tanks now with no provoke is because they simply followed the dots and never took a minute to research or think for themselves....This is why the DRK above in the screenshots also showed up to Ramuh ex and bombed all the mechanics, didnt have a clue what he was doing, on top of not having provoke. This isnt the result of too little hand holding, but likely that of too much of it.

[Shurrikhan]

While it isn't exactly too much of a problem... it's a little baffling that WARs and DRKs get their tanking stance (Defiance and Grit) at lv 30 while PLDs get theirs at 40. (Shield Oath) That can at least stand to be adjusted. (Swap Sword to 40, Shield to 30.) I generally had a better, easier time tanking Brayflox normal as a WAR than I did as a PLD because of this.

Personally, tanking Brayflox normal felt almost exactly the same on PLD as the others for me, as long as the dps attacked the same target with their filler (DoT spreads fine, but direct damage on the same mob, usually in simple tab order). I only noticed WAR and DRK being less wasteful for pure AoE because... your AoEs actually deal damage.

WAR and DRK also get non-enmity (half) combos before 30, though, while Paladin doesn't until 54. Whereas the others have to spend time building buffs or maintaining mana at cost of enmity skill uptime, PLD does not. As such, it mostly works itself out aggro-wise, and I definitely preferred the extra damage of Sword Oath for level 30 than the enmity and eHP of Shield Oath. Now that Shield Oath is a mere 15% damage reduction and has a higher enmity modifier, I'd be happy with either, but I don't think PLD is in an especially bad spot at all 30-39 compared to the other two, or at least not because of the lack of tank stance itself.

[Mokkoe]

Or people can stop being idiots? That works as well.

You're not supposed to start a sentence with a conjunction you maroon. God, they teach you this back in elementary school. You're such a baddie in the usage of the English language. Just uninstall, I shouldn't need to hold your hand and tell you not to start sentences with conjunctions.

There are some things where people either need some common sense or to just pick it up and learn as they go.
Not everything needs to hold your hand.

The problem though is that Provoke is the only absolutely required cross class skill. Others like B4B, Internal Release, Quelling Strikes, etc, are incredibly useful but not at all required.

Either telling new tanks that Provoke is a necessity down the road or simply giving WAR and DRK a Provoke copy isn't hand holding.

players are already told about cross class abilities. To unlock your job at 30 you have to level a 2nd class, this gets you used to at least mixing two classes. I simply disagree with you. I dont think they need to do anything else to educate players in this regard. I think it is fine how it is. The very few players who somehow dont get it will get it eventually, as someone in a party or an FC will inform them. Problems who's root cause is ignorance tend to sort themselves out. You could have a pop up come up for every tank that said "you should go get provoke, its very important", and you would still run into tanks on rare occasion who dont have it. People need to realize that it is OK to consider the community as one avenue to solve such problems. People who call for more and more and more hand holding just don't get it. You end up creating a player who becomes so reliant on the hand holding that when it isnt there, they are clueless. Why is there so little incentive put on the individual anymore? The reason you run into tanks now with no provoke is because they simply followed the dots and never took a minute to research or think for themselves....This is why the DRK above in the screenshots also showed up to Ramuh ex and bombed all the mechanics, didnt have a clue what he was doing, on top of not having provoke. This isnt the result of too little hand holding, but likely that of too much of it.

Players are told about cross class abilities once, and a majority of the skills they see before they start seriously leveling another class are completely useless. This is also ignoring the fact that new MRDs and DRKs probably don't even know that Provoke exists, since you only need GLD 15 to unlock WAR and DRK is unlocked automatically.

The game does a good job of telling players that the Armory system exists, through repeated mentions throughout the game and requiring most jobs to have at least a level 15 in another class, but your average sprout is just going to see that as a reminder that they can level multiple classes at once, not how some cross skills are handy and how Provoke is required at 50+.

With how important Provoke is, the game does need to either outright tell new tanks that Provoke is a requirement at 50+, or give WAR and DRK Provoke copies. This isn't hand holding, this is giving new tanks less excuses to not have Provoke.

[Bdyer]

players are already told about cross class abilities. To unlock your job at 30 you have to level a 2nd class, this gets you used to at least mixing two classes. I simply disagree with you. I dont think they need to do anything else to educate players in this regard.

Ya, but when you level a second class, all you get is a little help blurb about cross class skills. Even the players then who go look in the cross class skill options only see what they have unlocked which for warrior is savage blade and flash.. You physically have to go into the class your crossing from, read each skill and which classes it applies too before figuring out oh provoke is in 7 more levels and seems useful.

[Krazymagic]

You guys sure go through great lengths to explain why the individual is incapable. Sorry, I just don't see the problem here. I think the vast majority of players figure this out relatively easy, and the tiny minority who don't, the community will fill that gap. Were talking about a small minority of players, and no guarantee that even a flashing banner accompanied by a siren would have any impact.

[Lambdafish]

Sorry, I just don't see the problem here

Honestly I don't think you ever will. The reason for that is because it is not YOUR problem, so you can't see from the point of view of a player who is less MMO or even game savvy, and are just stumbling though the game, taking in the sights (as many of us did). The issue isn't even about the players themselves, but rather the DF parties that have to disband from a player who doesn't have provoke. We have seen evidence of individuals themselves admitting to not knowing about provoke, to people having been in parties that have disbanded because of it. It is a shame to take away discovery, but you shouldn't "discover" something this vital.

We have argued this case for a while, and we are getting nowhere, so I want to ask what you personally lose from changing the way provoke works in the cross class system (as an example, if DRK and war got equivilent skills at lvl50), and how this QoL change is in any way a bad thing.

[LaylaTsarra]

We have argued this case for a while, and we are getting nowhere, so I want to ask what you personally lose from changing the way provoke works in the cross class system (as an example, if DRK and war got equivilent skills at lvl50), and how this QoL change is in any way a bad thing.

I have no problem with hint/prompts in game relative to cross class skills that are needed to play. I do have a problem however with dumbing the game down and making it easier for people. If they want provoke and know they need it then level paladin. They may find that they enjoy that job as well. Personally I need stoneskin now for my alt Talea where I'm leveling astrologian on her account. It's not something I prefer to do but I know i need it and will level it cause I don't want to be embarrassed as a healer who can't provide that skill.

There are some Yokai fates in her future with her whm only at 10 at the moment.