Something need to be done in how tanks acquiring Provoke

[MaeIsMean]

Why would you willing put 3 other players through that? Even if no one died thats pretty crappy. Just saying.

Because I didn't realize I had no job skills. I had never played it before, but foolishly thought I had kept up with the job quests as I was doing the SMN ones. It was an oversight, which I corrected after a single dungeon. The other people didn't really notice, as no one died, and I even got a commendation.

[Jeanschyso]

I had entered a fight that required tank swapping and I was forced to make sure I kept just a slight edge over the DK because he didn't have Provoke.

It's a challenge like I've never seen and I wouldn't do it again..

[Krazymagic]

How are you guys still beating this horse? Youre talking about something that isnt even a problem, is completely in line with every other class design, and that is very likely not going to change. Provoke has been like this since the Beta of 1.0 in 2010. What has changed now that requires a change? Nothing. Cross class skills are part of the game. Being optimal at any job requires cross class skills. Provoke has been fine just where it is. You guys are so unrealistic, even trying to design all new skills that would circumvent having to cross skill provoke from gladiator. You seem to forget the cross skill system is central to the job system in this game.

[Freyyy]

snip

No, the cross-class skills isn't central to the jobs in any way, shape or form. It's just a boring and lazy way of giving each jobs extra tools to complete their lacking toolkit, and I'm not gonna repeat all the arguments I made about this, I'm just gonna quote myself in case you didn't read :

I personally think that the whole class and cross-class system is boring and should be scrapped if they don't want to improve it (and I already have every single class high level enough to have every single cross-class options available for every single job so I'm not saying this because I'm lazy). They never added any cross-class, there is no job that can cross-class rogue skills, and the new jobs from now on won't ever get a class so they'll never share any of their skills to the other classes. We didn't even get an extra slot at level 60. The 5 cross class skills we have now just feel like a product of laziness from the developpers who, instead of giving each class 5 more unique skills, chose to just give them all the same thing to complete their kit (every physical DPS gets the same Lancer and Pugilist skills with the exception of MCH who gets archer instead of Pugilist, and both DRG and MNK have the same Marauder skills since they don't cross-class with themselves, both caster DPS get the same Archer skills, etc... there is absolutely no originality or even "choice", since the 5 skills we take for each class are the only 5 that are somewhat good, the other options being completely useless shit). The basic idea of having the possibility to get skills from other classes as a reward for levelling every class was good, but the result in game is really lame. And since they show all the signs that they aren't willing to improve it in any way, shape or form, I think that they should just delete this system and replace the 5 missing skills with 5 new skills for each job, while also changing the levels at which we learn most skills since a lot of them make no sense (PLD being the derpest of all the jobs in that matter, learning ShO at 40 while the other tanks have their tanking stance at 30, or the fact that they learn very basic DPS combos only at 54 and 60 even tho it would make more sense to have them a lot earlier to help with solo questing... Sheltron being an incredibly basic block skill too, only learned at 52 while he can learn to be outright Invincible 2 levels earlier).

It's not because something is here since the beginning and doesn't "require" a change that it's good design and should never be changed. Otherwise we'd still have the old 1.0 gameplay. Change is a good thing, especially for boring, lazy and shitty concepts that are going nowhere.

[Ilan]

So its boring and lazy? I would say its pretty unique in the general MMO world and for many people interesting since they can see at least a little bit of other classes. But hey everyone has his/her own sight of things and there is no right or wrong even if you want to point your oppinion as right.

[Krazymagic]

snip.

Thats all fine and good, just dont forget that youre expressing your personal opinion here, and everybody has one of those. My opinion is counter to yours. Cross abilities are in fact very central to the job design. Borrowing strengths from multiple classes is something SE has always done. Did you ever play FFXI? It was done differently in that game but still jobs relied on sub jobs and its abilities to be adequate. You seem to think that SE didn't give war and drk a provoke ability by mistake...It was by design. They intend for you to level gladiator to acquire it, much like they intend for every job to branch to other classes to gain access to certain abilities. Cross class abilities is even more important for crafting. Try to consistently HQ 3 star LV 60 crafts without a single cross ability. Every class and job, aside from gatherers really, are designed with cross abilities in mind. For you to say its not central to the jobs in any way is just a very under developed opinion. That doesn't mean you cant still dislike it and rant against it, but it is indeed one of the central designs to the job system. Suggestions that circumvent the need to cross abilities are counter to the very intentional design of the game. Furthermore, for the majority of players we get it, and see no problem here at all. I still don't see why provoke is any problem.

[lvlagmarink]

How are you guys still beating this horse? Youre talking about something that isnt even a problem, is completely in line with every other class design, and that is very likely not going to change. Provoke has been like this since the Beta of 1.0 in 2010. What has changed now that requires a change? Nothing. Cross class skills are part of the game. Being optimal at any job requires cross class skills. Provoke has been fine just where it is. You guys are so unrealistic, even trying to design all new skills that would circumvent having to cross skill provoke from gladiator. You seem to forget the cross skill system is central to the job system in this game.

Care to elaborate on this post?

I agree that Provoke should've been mandatory across all Tanks. It's the same way that SCH and AST have Resurrection and Ascend, respectively, instead of having to Cross Class Raise from CNJ.

An easy solution would be to just add a new L50 skill for the new tanks that functions the exact same as Provoke with appropriate names, then remove Provoke as a CC skill. They did it for WHM with Stoneskin II, so it wouldn't exactly be far-fetched to have WAR and DRK with 3 L50 skills.

Why would they give healers their own raise skills instead of making them require crossclassing raise from the start? Is raise really that important?

Maybe lots of players need to dodge stuffs better and die less, after all most of the dying process tightly knot to players being lazy and ignorant to their surroundings too..

Also as far as I know, classes are a thing since 2.0 (and i think from 1.0, not sure i didn't play 1.0) but why did they introduce DRK,AST, and MCH as a job? Did they change the formula after all these years? Why would they start at lv 30 anyway? Personally I am not bothered if i need to grind those 30 levels from the scratch.

[Jijifli]

Way to totally twist what she said. It's more like "The game should better explain the important parts of playing the game WITHIN the game. Things like fine tuning your dps rotation and what stats to focus on for raiding are things that can be referenced outside of game." If provoke is so NECESSARY to all tanks, then it should either be explained better, highlighted better, or just plain offered to every tank. No one is asking the game to be made easier, just for REALLY important things, it should be made clear it's REALLY important, instead of a "fun way to personalize your job/class" like it is now.

Since I guess I need to explain, I will.

She stated the "spoiling themselves in advance with wiki's and guides." To start, I can't think of a tank guide that spoils the story. Secondly, by the time you reach content that needs it, you'd hopefully be what this cross class stuff is. It isn't hard to figure it out honestly, considering that two of the three tanks have to at least touch the class that has it. PLD just gets it, and WAR needs it to 15 so it would probably notice things. And if you're going DRK without touching those, then you were probably a lost cause anyways.

I don't know. Maybe it's because it's not my first MMO. Maybe it's just that I pay attention to things that benefit a job. I just feel like the only way they could make it more obvious is a giant sign on your screen about it.

[Freyyy]

Thats all fine and good, just dont forget that youre expressing your personal opinion here, and everybody has one of those. My opinion is counter to yours. Cross abilities are in fact very central to the job design.

Yes it is my personnal opinion, but it's based on facts. I've already said that if the cross-class system had more depth instead of what it is now, it would indeed be very interesting. I'd like them to IMPROVE it, but since they aren't gonna do that (and if they do, I'd be really surprised in a good way tbh), they should IMO just scrap it and do something more interesting instead. As of right now, a lot of cross-class options are blatantly useless and silly, leaving only 4-5 really useful options for each job which are all the same for everyone. It is not interesting. It's just something you have to do to have what's missing on your job, and it is not central by any means.

Borrowing strengths from multiple classes is something SE has always done. Did you ever play FFXI? It was done differently in that game but still jobs relied on sub jobs and its abilities to be adequate. You seem to think that SE didn't give war and drk a provoke ability by mistake...It was by design.

I didn't play FFXI, but I don't care about this game and nobody should. FFXIV is its own game, it's not an FFXI sequel. Other than that, I've played every single other FF game besides XI (even the cross-over ones) and there is really few of them where you get to pick skills from other jobs. And when I say few, it's like really really few, being FF5 and... That's it I believe, other than FF11 which I didn't play. The FF franchise also has a signature thing, being that every single game is different and while sharing some similarities which makes a FF game a FF game (Moogles, Chocobos, magic, etc), so saying that "It's been like that in one previous game so it should be the same here" doesn't apply to the FF series whatsoever. It's not like the Tales of or the Pokémon series.
I know that it was by design, but to me it was bad design, for the reasons I already listed : Getting B4B, Invigorate, Swiftcast and stuff like that from other jobs is fine since it's just convenience and efficiency-boost, but Provoke is on a whole other league. It's REQUIRED for specific fight mechanics. It should be on every tank, just like every healer has its own raise, just like every healer has its own Cure and Esuna equivalents, just like every tank has its own tanking stance.

Cross class abilities is even more important for crafting. Try to consistently HQ 3 star LV 60 crafts without a single cross ability.

I myself don't do crafting and one of the reason is because I firstly dislike crafting in any game, but on top of that, to even be able to craft useful things in FFXIV, you have to level pretty much every single crafter in the game to atleast level 50 I believe, and it's just a big turnoff to me especially since levelling crafters is far from being as interesting as levelling battle classes (which I find tremendously fun since I love seeing every dungeon and fight from every point of view while taking a break from the whole end-game monotony and I believe that it overall makes you a better player as a result, but I also don't think that it should be forced to anyone), but it's a whole other thread in itself.

Every class and job, aside from gatherers really, are designed with cross abilities in mind. For you to say its not central to the jobs in any way is just a very under developed opinion. That doesn't mean you cant still dislike it and rant against it, but it is indeed one of the central designs to the job system. Suggestions that circumvent the need to cross abilities are counter to the very intentional design of the game. Furthermore, for the majority of players we get it, and see no problem here at all. I still don't see why provoke is any problem.

I know that they are designed with cross abilities in mind, otherwise every physical class would have a TP restore move of its own. But it doesn't make it central to the jobs at all, it's just an old system that they kept, without even trying to put more depth into it. Of course they design jobs with it in mind, otherwise some jobs would be unbalanced (Imagine if MNKs had a B4B-type DPS-buff of their own on top of being able to cross-class the LNC one, BLM having RS-type DPS-buff on top of being able to cross class the Archer one, would be fucked up). Reworking the system or creating original skills for each job instead requires too much work for them so they decided to just keep it as it is and develop every job with it in mind. If it really was central, we would have gotten one more slot, and more interesting choices from more different classes for each jobs. We would have atleast one job with ROG skills, we would have DRK, AST and MCH cross-class skills even if they're only jobs. It could have actually been extended to job skills at some degree (Not cross-classing skills like Hallowed Ground of course). But they didn't. They just keep it because it's there and they don't want to put work into improving it or removing it. So, no, it is not central.

[lvlagmarink]

She stated the "spoiling themselves in advance with wiki's and guides." To start, I can't think of a tank guide that spoils the story. Secondly, by the time you reach content that needs it, you'd hopefully be what this cross class stuff is. It isn't hard to figure it out honestly, considering that two of the three tanks have to at least touch the class that has it. PLD just gets it, and WAR needs it to 15 so it would probably notice things. And if you're going DRK without touching those, then you were probably a lost cause anyways.

It's most probably about spoiling the gameplay, not the story imo. Which sorta making description indirectly toward why being a DRK without provoke is a lost cause when the game doesn't practically tell players to grab it..

I personally don't want to discuss whether someone should go search a guide somewhere because it will definitely lead to a discussion to how much time/effort a player spend in researching versus how much time the player actually play the game itself.. Which more or less depending on the experience of that player's being affected.. To make it simple, it's like how much time one spend time to read a game vs the time being spent to play the game, those things are mostly personalized between players to players..