Something need to be done in how tanks acquiring Provoke

[Zojha]

Your comparison is completely out of place here, we're talking about taunting a target.

And I was comparing with mitigation, because we do have one mitigation example where tradeoffs exist (Plus, Mitigation is just as crucial a tank thing as taunt). Inner Beast is used in a similar way as Shadowskin/Rampart, as mitigation for a tank-buster, since it's the only %damage reduction WARs have outside of Vengeance (Foresight is very weak and often not even applicable). It also has a much shorter duration that the other spells. And using it means you lose out of a Fell Cleave. But, WARs make up in other ways.

This is very much comparable to having taunt on a Dark Arts'd oGCD, as it presents very similar tradeoffs.

Anywhoo, if you have better ideas how to make a unique but functional taunt for the other tanks, feel free to shoot, because that's what I was originally replying to. Alternately, we could just copy WAR's skillset, paste it to the other two tanks, add provoke and call it a day - all imbalances gone in an instant. If we're just going to copy tools, might as well.

[Freyyy]

And I was comparing with mitigation, because we do have one mitigation example where tradeoffs exist (Plus, Mitigation is just as crucial a tank thing as taunt). Inner Beast is used in a similar way as Shadowskin/Rampart, as mitigation for a tank-buster, since it's the only %damage reduction WARs have outside of Vengeance (Foresight is very weak and often not even applicable). It also has a much shorter duration that the other spells. And using it means you lose out of a Fell Cleave. But, WARs make up in other ways.

This is very much comparable to having taunt on a Dark Arts'd oGCD, as it presents very similar tradeoffs.

Anywhoo, if you have better ideas how to make a unique but functional taunt for the other tanks, feel free to shoot, because that's what I was originally replying to. Alternately, we could just copy WAR's skillset, paste it to the other two tanks, add provoke and call it a day - all imbalances gone in an instant. If we're just going to copy tools, might as well.

The thing is that the tradeoff isn't comparable; WAR only sacrifices the difference in damage between a FC and an IB when he uses IB, whereas using Shadowskin to mitigate a tank buster sacrifices a possibility to use it for DPSing out of Grit while MTing for the next 90sec, which I believe outweights the WAR sacrifice. Also, WAR can use IB so often that you have it as a guaranteed basic mitigation tool for every single tank buster in any fight, whereas the CD on Shadowskin forces you to use other CDs. And while WAR has less %damage reduction CDs, it has very similar tools in terms of effective mitigation. Thrill of Battle + Convo is almost equal to Rampart/Shadowskin for example (it's equivalent to roughly 17% damage reduction). Defiance in itself is equal to ShO/Grit, Raw Intuition is superior to Bulwark and Dark Dance in every possible way, and WAR has the best self-healing-while-full-on-DPSing amongst the 3 tanks. Take into account the fact that Vengence has 1min less CD than Sentinel and Shadow Wall while lasting 50% longer, and the fact that they reflect damage with it and generate a stack as well as with RI... In terms of overall mitigation, WAR is honestly above the other two, so your comparison IS out of place. You're also comparing a tool that only has ONE purpose (Provoke) to a tool that can be used for many different things and forces you to make a choice (mitigation). When you use a mitigation tool, you sacrifice something, wether it be WAR using IB or any of its CDs, DRK and PLD using any of their CDs, in a sense that you sacrifice safe DPS stance uptime (and roughly 200 potency for IB). When you use Provoke for a tank swap, you don't sacrifice anything since you couldn't get any benefit from it anyway. Having to sacrifice a DA for a taunt on DRK is a bad idea, since we already spend the MP to activate Grit, and on top of that have to use an enmity combo which doesn't generate MP, so we also sacrifice 884 MP from the absence of Syphon Strike. Tank swapping already costs roughly 2200 MP to a DRK, if you add a Dark Arts it makes it cost roughly 4000 MP instead, which is almost 2/3rd of our MP gauge on top of a DPS loss from : 1. Sacrificing a GCD to activate Grit 2. Having to use our weakest combo in terms of damage 3. Having our damage output nerfed by Grit. And any player who knows about how DRK works knows that MP also directly translates into potency for DRK. We already sacrifice enough for tank swapping.

My only idea right off the bat to get a Provoke for each tank might be just putting a taunt aspect to Grit, making it so when you activate Grit, the enemy you're targetting is taunted. This would allow DRK to activate his tanking stance at the same time as the tank swapping is occurring, you'd be doing something like Hard Slash -> Spinning Slash -> Grit -> Power Slash (with oGCDs weaved into it if available of course, like DA C&S, DP or whatevs). In situations where DRK would be OTing and needing to grab an add, he would just prepare his combo on the boss, target the add as soon as it spawns, activate Grit, Plunge if available, then use his combo finisher. It could be a very interesting way of taunting. I thought about that because Grit has a very "menacing" animation, which could completely work for a taunt animation. Grit only being a Shield Oath clone with such an offensive animation feels quite weird IMO.

For WAR, I was thinking about a super beast battle cry, AoE-taunting for like Flash's radius. It could also add a stack of Wrath/Abandon when used.

It's just my ideas tho, might be considered unbalanced as well, and I doubt that the devs would do that anyway. It's more likely that if they ever give every tank its own taunt, it will just be Provoke for everyone at level 22.

[Shurrikhan]

Rough idea spread of Provoke alternatives:

This would assume an extra role-specific ability slot, by which every tank receives a taunt ability of some sort by a certain level, which can then be swapped with any other taunt skill learned. Additional taunt skills can then be further acquired through cross-class. Provoke would be removed from the main Gladiator class abilities, and an additional Gladiator skill added in its slot. Tanks will now have one extra button. Something similar may be done for Cleric Stance, etc., among healers, to show how central these skills are and give a bit more flavor to how those functions are performed.

MRD/WAR:
Challenge - Calls the attention of nearby enemies within 10 yalms, effect increasing with proximity and partially split among the enemies affected. (Strikes three times, at sixth of a GCD intervals.) Generates temporary enmity with a 50% chance to force the enemy to target you for 1.5 seconds. Effectiveness increased with total enmity on the target.

DRK:
Command - Forces the target's attention onto you for three seconds while causing it to take bonus temporary enmity from your attacks and duplicate 50% of enmity received to enemies within 6 yalms of the target. Each enmity-embonused attack against the target refreshes the duration. Effect suffers diminishing returns. Bonus enmity increased with total enmity on the target.

GLD/PLD:
Provoke - [Unchanged] Directs the target's focus to you, placing yourself at the top of the target's enmity list.

Obviously, under these descriptions, Provoke remains superior in any situation where an OT would not have been generating enmity prior, but its lead is mitigated as swap count increases. These ideas will therefore need significant revamp and balancing in order to be feasible. For now I just wanted to show what a few different options might look like. Ideally, I'd like to rework enmity completely, coupled with mob AI revamps, before making any real ideas for alternate taunting abilities.

[MistakeNot]

This isn't a single player game. If they belong to a FC they should learn about it from friends there. Discussions in our FC talk about lots of things including cross class skills that are important.

Not all players belong to an FC. Such things are not discussed in all FCs. Personally I don't think I have ever seen cross class skills come up in any FC discussions.

[lvlagmarink]

Guildhests

Which is also funny, because the very first guildhest locks marauder from using aoe enmity generated skill unless the marauder crossclass flash at its first slot, in which also means the marauder levels another tank (GLA) to at least 8... So marauder can be considered a lousy DPS on that duty..

If one would do like how the guildhest's description intend players to do which is by drawing single targets from groups of mobs using ranged attacks.. Not a single tank even have a range attack to do that and the tutorial seems more like a farce to me..

[giantslayer]

Back on the original topic, Provoke really is in a league of its own in terms of importance (although Protect and Cleric Stance are arguably not far behind). The thing is that Provoke is designed to be a necessary mechanic to clear certain fights. There aren't any fights where the dev team designed Quelling or Swiftcast to be part of a necessary mechanic for the fight.

[FeliAiko]

I agree that Provoke should've been mandatory across all Tanks. It's the same way that SCH and AST have Resurrection and Ascend, respectively, instead of having to Cross Class Raise from CNJ.

An easy solution would be to just add a new L50 skill for the new tanks that functions the exact same as Provoke with appropriate names, then remove Provoke as a CC skill. They did it for WHM with Stoneskin II, so it wouldn't exactly be far-fetched to have WAR and DRK with 3 L50 skills.

[Cakekizyy]

Another option is stop using mechanics that require swaps.

[Derio]

Don't really see this as a problem. Provoke is only used for raiding. If that player wants to raid, pretty sure they would have obtained all their cross class skills

[ADVSS]

just do like the invention of stoneskin 2, and just give it to all three like whm got. improve gladiators provoke or give them something else in return for it?

Edit:Cakez beat me to it, what Cakez saud