Something need to be done in how tanks acquiring Provoke

[Freyyy]

I honestly think that they should remove the classes and the cross-class system altogether and replace the 5 cross-class slots we have with 5 new job-specific skills that replace them and add some new effects specific to the job. Like instead of every physical DPS ever cross-classing Lancer for B4B and Invigorate, make them all have their specific TP-recovery tool which could work a bit differently for each job, and make them get their own temporary damage buff instead of B4B which would also have its own mechanic depending on the job (Like for example MNK could get a 3min CD buff which would instantly grant them GL5 or GL6 instead of GL3 for a short amount of time, boosting both their damage and attackspeed even further at the cost of HP just like BLM's Convert, and the GL5-6 wouldn't be refresh-able, forcing to go into a Perfect Balance rotation afterwards to get back to GL3 fast and giving an opportunity to actually use Tornado Kick within a burst rotation since you could use it right at the end of this new buff, NINs could get a Kage Bunshin sorta thing which would mirror the real NIN for a short amount of time but with only 30% of its damage - Just some ideas which came to my mind as I'm writing). It would be the same for tanks, each would have their own taunting ability, an equivalent to Convalescence and Bloodbath in terms of survivability, etc... But with different mechanics which would follow the general idea of the job (Warrior being an unrelenting wrecking ball of meat and steel, Dark Knight being an intimidating edgy edgelord soul-thirsty slayer of death who can summon a black hole inside your body while cutting you in half, and Paladin being a shiny white knight spreading light upon the whole country while protecting everyone with very shieldy shield skills and wielding some white-magic powers).

But that's a whole other thread lol

[Warlyx]

if u are doing EX and didnt bother to level paladin to get provoke why are u tanking? leveling other class for cross skill is a REQ if u wan to do any endgame (50+ content) , all healers must have quickcast (For rez) , same goes for SMN , all the dps need to have all the crossclass CDs (BFB sucks since u need to level DRG way more levels than WAR/DRK for provoke) , "i dont like that class" ...i can understand that feeling , but if u want to enjoy your main 100% u need to level X , Y ....just do it and forget it.

[Lambdafish]

I could just say you have a massively low expectation of this generation of mmorpgamers apparently.

Read Mae's comment, then read mine, it's a standard expectation of players based on the system and tutorials that are presented to the player. I can't really say anymore because they summed it up perfectly with their experience.

The point I'm trying to get across (because we are devolving into disagreements rather than solutions) is that it is the systems fault for not teaching the player as a sprout (or not forcing it upon the player as an action they must use), rather than the players fault for being unaware of the necessity of the skill. This is actually the better outcome, because you can fix a system, but you cannot fix a playerbase.

[Ametrine]

To put things into perspective, my entire mentality as a player up to lvl 20 was still deciding what class I wanted to main... but that has nothing to do with this? Were talking about endgame here I thought.

And mine was "Why is it so hard to unlock SCH? I want to heal!"

.... And we're talking about the issue with players hitting endgame with no knowledge of certain cross-class skills' importance due to the lack of info on it as you level. Thus our bringing up spout's not getting the memo since there are so many other things to see and do.

[Marxam]

I would like to think that the class quests and the GLD storyline should be enough to persuade players to play long enough to get to lvl 22 to learn provoke, if not to experiment with GLD long enough to see if the class is right for them, but clearly that's too much for gamers today. If story, or experimentation isn't enough to persuade you to play a class to lvl 22 minimum, then unfortunately you'll need to learn to grow a thick skin if you plan to keep playing this game.

If SE was to address this, it can be easily solved by having a trial in the Mentor Hall at lvl 25. A Gobbue is hitting a lala who has full enmity. You have 10 seconds to take hate off him or he dies. The only way to take hate is to provoke and follow it up with an attack as your full enmity combo will barely even register on the enmity bar and will not be enough time.

[Lambdafish]

snip

God forbid someone levelling MRD into WAR hates GLA, and decides to stop levelling at 15 when they unlock WAR, unaware that a vital skill lies 7 levels away. This is akin to crafting (more 2.0 than 3.0), where you need to go online or ask someone to find out the important cross class skills that you need.

[Mycow8me]

Read Mae's comment, then read mine, it's a standard expectation of players based on the system and tutorials that are presented to the player. I can't really say anymore because they summed it up perfectly with their experience.

The point I'm trying to get across (because we are devolving into disagreements rather than solutions) is that it is the systems fault for not teaching the player as a sprout (or not forcing it upon the player as an action they must use), rather than the players fault for being unaware of the necessity of the skill. This is actually the better outcome, because you can fix a system, but you cannot fix a playerbase.

I actually did read mae's comment, but as I said earlier in the thread... There is an actual "Using actions from other classes" active help that appears along the way when you are able. The info is there, whether or not you actually read it or skip through it is a choice. How anyone could read the tool tip for provoke and think that instant placement at the top of the hate list isn't useful enough to be needed at some point as a tank is beyond me. Choosing not to go over your available/aquireable skills is also a choice, being impatient and wanting to get straight to endgame is also a choice.

I would wager that even if there was more info somewhere they would still skip over it unless the content was locked for not having the skill in the first place. At that point I would also wager ppl would complain about having to lvl gladiator to 22 for it and still want the cross class system gone.

Wanting the cross class system gone is another issue all together which I still dont think is worth the trouble on SE's part. The average gamer is not a potato.

In FFXI there was actually a hate cap system. You could potentially grab hate from another tank quite easily if needed why don't we just make provoke useless with a cap system so even a potato or someone wanting to go straight to endgame without much knowledge of their class/role can just jump aboard and have at it?

[Lambdafish]

How anyone could read the tool tip for provoke and think that instant placement at the top of the hate list isn't useful enough to be needed at some point as a tank is beyond me.

A GLA/PLD wouldn't, because they learn it, it appears on their bar, and they think that will be useful as part of their toolkit. A MRD/WAR doesn't get that far, and works with the skills that they learn. You are missing the mark entirely by implying that people are willingly skipping over provoke, the cross class system just makes the skill harder to access for people who don't know it exists. Active help is all well and good, but it does not say "you must level GLA to 22 in order to function at endgame level", it simply explains what the cross class system is, which is the point that we have been making from the beginning. Suddenly, this fresh 60 who has never done a piece of 8man content except castrum/pretorium is hurled abuse at because he is a WAR with a level 15 GLA and "he should know by now"

[Mycow8me]

I just cant anymore lol. They are willingly skipping over provoke and people don't know it exists because they chose not to look further into their available cross class skills. A MRD/WAR CAN get that far but you are assuming they won't because they dont care to.

How many times do I have to say that the active help explains what the cross class system is and how to use the skills from it. When a marauder levels gladiator to become a warrior, they get the chance to check those cross class skills and you are talking about the ones who decided not to.

I give up. I seriously don't even see this as a problem. That's where we disagree.

Rightfully so, he should have known as should anyone attempting endgame and not even checking the available skills they've missed out on assuming they won't ever be useful, needed, or important. Just like the DPS who didn't get their cross class skills cause they didn't think they needed them to do a dps clock mechanic at endgame or the healers who chose not to get quick cast so save a wipe, or even smns for that matter. Why would anyone strive to aquire things they might need or be very useful later on is still beyond me.

Sorry man, I just don't follow you. I'm going to keep assuming that the average player is smart and caring enough to attain the knowledge of their role and willing to look through their cross class skills with the plans to actually use them.

[CUTS3R]

If you and many others apparently bothered to read the abilites/spell tool tips they say on the very bottom what classes and jobs can use them, clearly indicating that its a cross class system. Or opening up the abilities menu and seeing the additional area.....

People can't even read and understand simple PF comments so don't be surprised they didn't even see about cross class abilities.