Make FFXIV more like FFXI and less like WoW!

[MilesSaintboroguh]

Think they already did that with hunts.

And the drama that goes with it. Heck, the Moonfire Faire event did a much better job emulating what hunts are like.

[Lexia]

I think this video sums it up well

https://youtu.be/H9r34qSyYg0

At the end of the video is the guy trying to say that XIV is like games of the past with build up and hardcore content? Cause it not XIV is another one of those "walk through door kill boss and keep moving" games Yoshi-p has even called XIV a theme park MMO as if you don't like something just check out next patch for something you might like.

[Istaru]

At the end of the video is the guy trying to say that XIV is like games of the past with build up and hardcore content? Cause it not XIV is another one of those "walk through door kill boss and keep moving" games Yoshi-p has even called XIV a theme park MMO as if you don't like something just check out next patch for something you might like.

You are correct, I was mostly referring to the start of the video where he is panning instant gratification as being a problem. I have edited my comment to be more accurate.

[loreleidiangelo]

Yes, I agree - raids do need better rewards.

I've always wondered if the introduction of Oil/Sand of Time into the 24-man raids was an intended design, or if it was added in response to community outcry. Were people REALLY that upset that raiders had 10 whole item levels over them? I couldn't even be arsed to finish a full set of 230 before I nope'd out of this game again, and I can't really say I'm really worried about being "unable to complete future content" or anything like that.

[Remus]

Yes, I agree - raids do need better rewards.

Of course they do. If you offer the top ilvl gear in 2 roads one hard and another easy people will pick the easy. Then SE wonders why the Raid community is so small in this game... There is nothing there to make people do it except challenge and sadly not everyone raids for challenge but most would for amazing loot. Where it shows that you put in a large amount of effort for this piece of content. In all honesty i'm not trying to be rude to anyone but majority of the people in this game are pretty lazy because they never need to work hard in the game to earn anything and Yoshi-p wonders why people's DPS has gone down with 3.x where everything is super easy except for Savage.

[Brannigan]

...
Were people REALLY that upset that raiders had 10 whole item levels over them? I couldn't even be arsed to finish a full set of 230 before I nope'd out of this game again, and I can't really say I'm really worried about being "unable to complete future content" or anything like that.

Yeahhhh it's pretty stupid. People like to justify it by saying stuff like "well you can only get best in slot by raiding" but so what? Best in slot vs worst ilvl 240 in slot parses to than 100 DPS difference for my paladin, and that was without adding materia to my crappy parry items. The difference should be even smaller for DPS classes and healers because all of their items actually have damage stats. Also the 245 weapon added 13 dps over 240.

Basically you don't get shit from raiding. It's always been this way with regard to stats, but now you don't even get unique looking gear or get to see unique areas. Instead you get a lolminion and the ability to dye gear. Yeah, that's what motivates people to raid.

FFXIV has no vertical progression. It's a series of very short ladders. You get a new one every 6 months and it becomes much, MUCH easier to climb 3 months after that.

[Welsper59]

Of course they do. If you offer the top ilvl gear in 2 roads one hard and another easy people will pick the easy. Then SE wonders why the Raid community is so small in this game... There is nothing there to make people do it except challenge and sadly not everyone raids for challenge but most would for amazing loot. Where it shows that you put in a large amount of effort for this piece of content. In all honesty i'm not trying to be rude to anyone but majority of the people in this game a pretty lazy because they never need to work hard in the game to earn anything and Yoshi-p wonders why people's DPS has gone down with 3.x where everything is super easy except for Savage.

Well one thing to consider in regards to that is how quickly the next tier is introduced. While no one would seriously complain that fast content updates are a bad thing, I don't think the vast majority understands how that impacts the game in its current setup. Every 6 months for the next raid tier is actually VERY fast by conventional standards. You'll quickly move on to the next set of ilvl upgrades, which means that not only will you feel like the gear you get is pointless, but also that the catch-up game is needed just as often. "Needed" is appropriate there, unless your goal is to force players to do the old school progression crawl through each raid and dungeon tier to gear up enough to take on the next tier... which makes the 6 month update routine more of a burnout and de-motivation tool than anything else. It'd at least make crafted gear extremely quick sellers with very high demand (assuming no adjustments to minimum requirements to use).

I guess they could release the "catch-up" content when the next raid tier introduced. I think that's considered a normal thing elsewhere. It'd at least make people view the current ilvl game as less meaningless when you add 3 months to its lifeline. Keep in mind that that'd also mean you'd need to remove highest tier tomes from simple content like daily roulette, dungeons, PvP, and older extreme raids.

FFXIV has no vertical progression. It's a series of very short ladders. You get a new one every 6 months and it becomes much, MUCH easier to climb 3 months after that.

Isn't that still vertical? :P I mean, it could be a single step up, but it's still going up.

[Brannigan]

I guess they could release the "catch-up" content when the next raid tier introduced. I think that's considered a normal thing elsewhere. It'd at least make people view the current ilvl game as less meaningless when you add 3 months to its lifeline. Keep in mind that that'd also mean you'd need to remove highest tier tomes from simple content like daily roulette, dungeons, PvP, and older extreme raids.

This is exactly what they should do. Tomestones had flawed implementation from the start. People wanted tokens in 1.x to mitigate RNG, not to replace content. Tomestones (and easy mode raid drops) in their current implementation:

1) completely invalidate dungeon gear
2) make 24 man gear much less worthwhile since you can have multiple full sets of the same item level by the time it comes out
3) completely invalidate the previous raid tier

What is even the point of nerfing the previous raid tier and adding echo to it if the new easy mode and tomestones drop FAR superior gear? Basically nobody entered Gordias after 3.2 (not that I blame them with how terrible Gordias was).

[Shurrikhan]

Here is what I feel needs to be considered from XI. The things I feel are game breaking issues for me in the current FFXIV.

1) The game should continue to add new content as it is now, but it SHOULD NOT negate old content. THE ITEM LEVEL SYSTEM SHOULD BE ABOLISHED COMPLETELY! Aka ARR endgame should still be valid today and should still be partially valid next expansion with some gear. (horizontalish growth - A slow replacement of gear and multiple paths and gear sets. Gear needs to be replaced but I would say once every 3yrs not every 3 months)

1. There is a bit of a contradiction here. If all raids give gear of the same approximate worth, then you not only potentially negate old content, but new as well. Once you have sufficient gear, there is really no need to raid anywhere. You can just as easily reintroduce old content through challenges, upgrade quests, and roulettes, each with their rewards scaled for the difficulty of that content – possibly even including multiple levels thereof (Echo on/off, level sync on/off, stat and ilvl sync on/off, minimum ilvl sync on/off). Multiple gear sets is already a inventory issue for the glamour fans out there without buying additional retainers, and would require wildly different stat-dependent fights to feel worthwhile, at which point you likely need not only sufficient ilvl, but exact pieces in order to progress, making that process even more linear or 'vertical' than it is now.

2) The Stats in the game for weapons should be linear. Some Armor/Weapons should be Better in X fight or in X party composition. There should be unique stats on gear as well as negative attributes. Example tank Body Give it Physical Defense +5% Magic dmg taken +10%, or give it really high defense with - str and - attack. There should not be an item that is BIS for everything. Honestly SE right now could remove all stats and just have 1 universal stat now called Item Level which effects all attributes and it would not change the game 1 bit, this is bad... really balanced but really bad.

2. a. The only reason I can think of that weapon damage would appear non-linear is that it's the multiplier for output based on your attack or spell power, which increases with all your other gear as well. b. At present there are very, very few ways in which stats can be dependent on composition. Higher speed rotations depending on a Dragon Kick bitch, an SE-BB Warrior, a ridiculous-speed SE-BB-BB Warrior, or a Ninja's Dancing Edge are about the only current examples. If Dragoon was slightly rebalanced, a second Disembowel might allow for some rotations, but at present the Chaos Thrust that follows is too lucrative to afford Disembowel dropping off either. How would you make stats depend on composition? c. How are you going to allow for all these fight-by-fight gear sets when we're capped at some 30 sets for all jobs? d. Except there can be a significant gear weight difference between two current sets of the same ilvl, because it is currently not balanced between secondary stats. Your hyperbolic suggestion would remove what little control we have on our rotations and the importance of our gear paths, and people would notice.

3) The open world areas need to be at least 2-3xs larger then currently... Heavensward is tons better then ARR but they are still small compared to other titles suck as WoW, FFXI, AA, Aion, and the rest.

3. Agreed, but obvious PS3 limitations. Note also however that there's a portion of this forum that will complain that the HW zones were barren and dull. Larger may comes at certain expenses, even after PS3's removal, since FPS drops and limited lower-end PC ram, and then the PS4 itself, are still all there.

4) Non-Fate Open World Party Leveling should be incorporated. The mentality of only leveling through content is not a good one when it forces fate zergs and mindless quest grinding.

4. I too would like to see this, but question how a mob camp, the only example we have of this in XI and 1.x, differs from a FATE spam except in that you spend less of the time moving from place to place. Given how few quests remain after leveling a single job, I also have to question whether quest "grinding" is the right word.

5) Open world needs danger, meaning mobs the strength of stuff found in Weeping City currently in the open world (not just in fates). If you wonder pointlessly into the wilds solo and under geared, you should get your face stomped into the ground.

5. Unless rewards scale with that adjustment and additional mechanics are given to deal with that (e.g. methods of stealth and distraction) you will then have even less participation in the open world. And in all HW zones, the whole matter will simply be cheesed via flying mounts, unless of course people get stomped on too often when trying to gather aether currents and simply quit then and there. What limitations do you suggest for the addition of powerful mobs? Where, and for what purpose, and with what rewards?

6) Game Needs to have a focus on guilds in terms of ENDGAME progression. Right now guilds have 0 use for anything other then social aspects, this is the main reason why guilds average 10ppl or less in ffxiv and people come and go like it is a revolving door. Yes people who do not join guilds or refuse to should have their progression hindered or just not have access to some content.... THIS IS A MMO, guilds are suppose to be a focal point of endgame.

6. Are we talking LSs, FCs, or crafting guilds? Only the last actually goes by that name. If an LS, I can't imagine how that's an issue. If an FC, I can easily imagine how your suggestion would make an issue; I don't want to have to change FCs, away from old friends and the like, every time I change statics. I certainly didn't have to in other MMOs, so just what standard is it that we're trying to hold ourselves to with this added inconvenience? People "who do not join guilds or refuse to" already have their progression hampered as much as in most competing PVE-centric games; they have to abide by different loot rules, they're less likely to acquire a static position or even to be noticed for a substitute role. Those are significant differences. You don't need to be locked out from entering an instance unless x percent or the whole of the party is of the same guild. And if you're not asking for limitations to make this "focus on guilds in terms of endgame progression" happen, then please, specify: what systems would you add to adjust our paradigms. (Perhaps additional raid or FC currency accretion per FC-mate involved in a given raid, such that there's a bit more of an advantage to having everyone in the same FC beyond the food and rez buffs?) Because all I'm seeing is a small difference in community, in which people are bit more comfortable with allowing multi-guild statics. I've raided with 150+ person raid guilds from a 15-man one in other MMOs. I don't see why that's suddenly a bad thing here just because it happens more often.

7) Game needs to incorporate the same as above with Difficult 15+ person content.

7. To what ends? To ensure that people need to be in a large guild to even step inside alliance raids? I'm all for more difficult content in a type that's been faceroll thus far, but what specifically are you asking for?

8) Groups need to be able to enter all content with any size up to max outside duty finder. Content is designed for 8 let them enter with 7 if they want. Or in terms of endgame allow a guild to take 5-30 people if they want just make the content designed for the max and increasingly harder to do as you get less people. (Aka doable with 25 but harder then 30, doable in 20 with good endgame gear, doable with 15 if you have top tier endgame gear)

8. There is no way to actually enter any instance without the duty finder at present. There will be a door, and a guard who will queue you for the duty finder for the give instance... The rest is simply done via the "undermanned" option. Also, you realize it's a party size of 8 in this game, right? So I take it this a suggested change to a LP of 5 or an FP of 10 to support the added Support or CC jobs mentioned below?

9) Remove penalties for running things as a guild. (Aka savage chest penalty).

9. Waiiit, so as long as I'm in the same FC as my carries, I can now get them both chests? ???? By all means, join for a day, take twice the loot, pay, and get lost? Cus, that's gonna be it's foremost use.

10) Incorporate crafting into endgame. There should be crafted gear that rivals Savage drops... now it can be with crafting materials obtained in top tier endgame. But as it stands crafting has no purpose outside vanity.

10. As long as it doesn't mean you can access Savage gear without participation in a Savage raid (even if by as indirect a relationship as its materials) I don't have an issue with that, though I don't think it's necessary either. Crafting already plays a huge part at the start of each content tier by giving higher ilvl than the previously best raid gear and even higher secondary stats than the new weekly-cap normal gear (see Eikon gear). Yes, this currently gives it more of a position as a static or FC-booster in the race to world- or server firsts than it shows as rare proof of those clears and that someone can wear enough crafter gear, hit the right buttons, and get lucky enough not to have those raid materials blow up. With your suggestion it can become an epeen competition to claim the specialists for your pentamelded i240 crafted gear. Hurray? Again, I'm not opposed to it, I just little value in it.

11) Due to the above all gathering and crafting jobs have no purpose besides vanity, thus FFXIV has one of the WORST economies in any mmo to date. Gil is literally useless outside playing dress-up and house. So it lacks the drive for many to even make money. If money was involved so much of the old content would still be worthwhile to run for primary progression. The bad economy model is probably 50% of this games issue with lack of valid content.

11. Some concrete details, please. What do you actually mean by "if money was involved so much of the old content would still be worthwhile to run for primary progression"? As in old content should drop more money, and then that money should be somehow necessary for progression? At present, they do drop money, after crafting, in the form of glamours (see Replica Allagan gear). Without more detail, I can't even tell if I'm sympathetic to the general goal; I can't tell what the goal is, let alone the course of action.

12) Remove the 1 job role per class.... SEE ffxi for this one RDM = Healer, Support, Crowd Control, Main Tank, Kiter Depending on the build and fight. (The ability to build jobs and gear to fit certain fights was one of the strengths of FFXI, the key is making it where 1 specific job build is not needed to win but a benefit if you have it)

12. Okay, and how do you keep the job who scales the best for gear in a given role from being pigeonholed into it, permanently or fight by fight? Because otherwise, there's no real multiplicity of role; there's just being one thing in one fight in another in another fight. At least, with no ilvl, that won't be a gradually changing concern, but rather just be on and off according to the fight, which itself determines what gear you're allowed to use, I guess... You want gear selection to be a valid concern, but that then means it should be on the right classes for the right roles, in order to get the most out of gear, raid-wide, as to increase lenience (which any "lack" of player skill cuts into). You can have difficulty, but it comes hand in hand with min-max-ing, unless you specifically balance those choices for the given fight to support X number of options per job per given composition, which is arduous task to say the least. (Not saying it isn't worth it, but these are real, adjacent concerns.)

13) Add in Crowd control and support. Game is missing 40% of the job types right now.

13. To do what, exactly, with those job types? Both are, in the end, either going to increase clear speed for a given composition or not, and will be taken or ignored accordingly. What new playstyles would they actually offer? How would they feel different enough to attract more players? And, the obvious support-specific question: how are they going to be about as effective in a small group as in a large one, if you want to see them ever used in light parties without being overpowered in full parties? Also, by CCers do you mean debuffers in general (which can overlap with support, much like Trick Attack in an otherwise DPS job)? Almost nothing's CCable in endgame, nor is it designed to make use of CCs. If they are truly just CCers, they would be unable to attend virtually all significant content released thus far.

14) Remove the scripted fights from everything. I do not like fights where I can start a stop watch and know exactly the second the mob will use an attack everytime.

14. Except a lot of people do like that seconds-timeable scripted style of fight, because it given windows to align oneself to, allowing for various gambles that can make one actually think about their rotation and giving a sense of urgency rather than merely watchfulness. I'll agree that the game really ought to bring in some new models—I'm a bit tired of it, myself—but there's no point in removing it from "everything", let alone remaking impressive fights just because they roll out like Michael Bay scripts.

15) Remove the 10-14min rage timers from everything or expand it up to a 1hr rage timer. The benefit of better gear should be quicker and easier clearing, DPS checks should be a rare thing not the standard.

15. This personally I would detest. I don't want my first clear to be that we brought enough Bards, healers, and a couple PLDs that we could faceroll dps for half an hour and the boss eventually falls down dead. I cannot imagine anything that anticlimactic. I can imagine excessive or no timers to be used on something like a mission, or instanced Hunt-like challenge where my group is competing on a server leaderboard for the best time. Not for raids. Never for raids. You don't do that to raids. The first clear might, necessarily, be a transient thing, and the weeks thereafter just ways to improve clear time to be off to the last floor not yet cleared all the faster, but at least it was intrinsically rewarding the first time, and maybe even several times after.

16) Remove Maximum DPS as the only thing to worry about. Bring back hate control, crowd control, mob attack management. AKA DPS should not be the primary focus of fights. A tank should not have unlimited threat.

16. The gameplay of hate control until Mob AI becomes more intricate is Shadewalker, Quelling Strikes, Elusive Jump, Smokescreen, Shroud of Saints, and Luminiferous Aether. To build any meta upon hate control gradually just removes Monks or stacks Ninjas. Even if you balanced things out, which in turn reduces job identity, hate management still wouldn't be interesting. It is, definitionally, standing around while the tank gathers enmity. I cannot imagine anything more dull. At best, with minimal crit deviation over the duration, I could find places as a DPS to allow for resyncing of CDs while I wait, except the bonus of that would be dps, which turns into enmity, so that won't work. Or I can use that time to ready burst, but, oh shoot, there are no dps checks. Even now tanks don't have unlimited threat. That's exactly why Ninja's enmity skills can equate to higher raid dps; they allow the tank to DPS stance and go ham all the earlier.

Now, I'm all for more crowd control and personal responsibility in terms of mob manipulation, stuns, kiting, etc. for everyone, but if you look at things like why T7 Savage was fun, it wasn't just because of the kiting and petrifying one-shotting giants (CC) to use as LoS columns—it was because you had to keep up DPS while doing that, or while making use of what those kiters have done or are about to do. DPS concerns do give a sense of urgency, and to most, who are willing to take that and run with it, excitement. I'm not saying that DPS should be the only concern, by any means. But you're targeting the wrong thing here. The issue isn't that DPS is important; it's when there's not much else to do, no compromises or gambles, that the DPS itself becomes less exciting. Those gambles can come from shorter term DPS checks, CCs, kiting, whatever, but their excitement hinges in turn on dps being a real issue.

[Shurrikhan]

This is exactly what they should do. Tomestones had flawed implementation from the start. People wanted tokens in 1.x to mitigate RNG, not to replace content. Tomestones (and easy mode raid drops) in their current implementation:

1) completely invalidate dungeon gear
2) make 24 man gear much less worthwhile since you can have multiple full sets of the same item level by the time it comes out
3) completely invalidate the previous raid tier

What is even the point of nerfing the previous raid tier and adding echo to it if the new easy mode and tomestones drop FAR superior gear? Basically nobody entered Gordias after 3.2 (not that I blame them with how terrible Gordias was).

Let me see if I've got this right then:

a. The token systems we see from HW primals are token systems done right.

b. Say what you about weekly caps and similar currencies, whatever you buy via those weekly tomes should not conflict with the value of other gear from the current patch or tier, nor the value of the highest level gear of the last tier.
(Perhaps this can be from some sort of upgrade system, or could affect something other than gear?)