3.4 speculation

[MilesSaintboroguh]

I just hope we get another "Beastman Alliance" quest showing the Moogles, Vath, and Vanu Vanu coming together for some awesomeness.

[Nalien]

You know, if you apply XIV rules to WWII... The Holocaust actually becomes partly justified... We're dealing with a world in which religious extremists can literally end the world through worship... If a group summoned Moses and became tempered as a result, you don't think we'd actually kill them? We kill tempered people because it's "the only way", and Garlemald does the exact same thing, granted they go a bit overboard and lump everyone together fairly easily, which is definitely a mistake... At least they have a plan of action for dealing with Primals though... We sure as hell don't, not beyond a simple "Hope the Warrior of Light can kill the Primal and they don't summon it again", I swear, the only reason we don't see Ifrit more often is a development/gameplay issue, they really should all be FATEs, because if this was reality they'd be getting summoned constantly and the world would have died already... We're dealing with a world where religion can spawn literal monsters that corrupt not only peoples minds, but the very land itself... I'm sure there is also a fairly massive economic impact to fighting them as well, we're told the Immortal Flames suffered a lot of losses to down Ifrit without us, and we saw Bismarck eat an island... Religion is pretty damn dangerous, and our current policy of "Hope the Warrior of Light can kill it and then hope they don't summon it again!" is utterly stupid... Grab some crystals and believe hard enough, and your extremist movement has a f*cking WMD... If the Beast Tribes we've battled thus far had any sense, they'd have taken to summoning the moment we got distracted by Ishgard... We'd have returned to a wasteland if this was really happening...

Don't get me wrong, the Empire definitely over does it on the genocide plan, but we're really no better... Replace "Jews" with "Tempered individuals", and we've already got our own Holocaust going on... Ultimately the Empire is still in the wrong for their actions though, for the same reasons I gave Nidhogg so much sh*t... They attack everyone remotely associated with the "bad" group, as we saw with the Vanu Vanu... We were sent to, and given aid to slay Bismarck by the very same group of Vanu Vanu that the Empire was going to kill because the Vanu Vanu summoned Bismarck... Bravo, Regula... All they really achieve is potentially justifying the actions of the group that summoned Bismarck, the same way Nidhogg slaying Ishgardians for the actions of 14 men solidified the "Nidhogg is bad" narrative the Church used to manipulate a nation... It's not an ideal solution, but again, what's our solution? Let them have the land and hope they don't summon again? Then when Garlemald seeks to acquire the technology to actually solve the problem, we step in the way... There is a reason Regula calls us savages, from his perspective we're utter morons... I still want to stop him having that technology of course, because the Garlean military has not left the best impression and Garlean occupation is a big unknown for me at the moment (no, I don't take refugee accounts as absolute fact...), but we're not just stopping them having that technology, our aim is to completely prevent its use... Like... Really? If I actually had a voice in the game I'd be demanding Cid reverse engineer this stuff so we can trap Ifrit/etc. and just seal them as best we can... We'd be like the Ghostbusters, except hopefully not susceptible to a forgettable reboot!

I actually hope Regula ends up repeating the sentiments Lahabrea and Igeyorhm left us with, because it's pretty damn accurate and fairly meta; We very much do want Primals to keep appearing, we want something to fight, because in a game that is what we find entertaining... If this was real life though? Christ... I'd sign up with the Empire in a heart beat... I wouldn't even need to see how exactly they treat their territories... I'd honestly be too f*cking terrified of religious fanatics ending the world to care... When they've conquered the world and Primals are a distant memory, then I'll start worrying about their other policies... Seriously, when the neighboring group of giant lizard men can summon a gianter fire demon and I don't have a infinite respawns anymore? Maybe not even the Echo? Nope. Nope nope nope. I might not even join the military, that's a bloody terrifying world to live in, but if I was going to fight Primals anyway? It certainly would be for the group that has a solution, rather than the one that's just going "Maybe they wont summon it again this time !", OK building better relations with beast tribes is also a solution I guess (which they're failing horribly at), but how quickly do you think that relationship would break down when we suggest the very real fact that their "God" has robbed them of free will and our current solution to this is insanely barbaric? I doubt the Eorzean Alliance would even be a thing honestly... Garlemald would be occupying ruins and any survivors would probably be damned grateful...

So yeah... If you want to make real world analogies with Garlemald... Try considering what exactly they're fighting and how utterly terrifying that world is to live in... They're still bad, at least the military given I haven't seen anything else of them, but Jesus H Christ, Hydaelyn is bad, it's an utterly terrifying place to live... I really don't think, in a realistic version of this world, there is any room to be as idealistic as we've been in game... The Scions of the Seventh Dawn would have fallen at the first hurdle and anyone with any sense would be labeling them as a cult of moronic savages... I hope that's the angle they eventually go for with Garlemald... Make the world somewhat more believable, rather than this utterly impossible tale of a hero of heroes... There is no Warrior of Light in Othard, any Primal that shows up is going to make people thankful for the big bad Empire throwing themselves at it and stamping out the cause of the problem... Hopefully that is reflected when we go there, slap us in an advanced city, then send us to the frontier where a Primal has put whatever Garlemald may or may not have done to Doma (since I've not been there to confirm refugees claims) to shame... If Garlemald is just going to be "The Evil Empire", then the story will be becoming as shallow as the rest of game (hopefully I start eating those words tomorrow, don't disappoint me, Edda-chan!)... If the game is going to have cartoon villains, can it please be the Ascians? They already look and sound the part, and the whole cosmic feud is so detached from reality... Garlemald has much more potential for an interesting narrative if we look at it through another lens... It's a real shame Gaius calling out our hypocrisy was so short lived...

Man, I'm so getting banned from the forums for this post... I've had warnings for less... Seriously though, I haven't seen the new Ghostbusters movie, so you can ignore this 7,000 character review, please don't ban me... I opened this post with "The Holocaust actually becomes partly justified", I'm already going to Hell, isn't that enough?

[PArcher]

Random stuff

Basically...his arguments are as someone saying the Earth is flat, refusing to listen to the evidence otherwise, claiming no one has any proof because he can't tell with his own two eyes. Him never debating, only claiming no one else was willing too, only cements this further, and that rational discussion is a lost cause (as we've seen)

And yes, there are many similarities between what the Garleans are doing and the Nazis did in WW2. Heck, the Garleans are even based on their "perfect" race...



I also find it very ironic that I'm one of the people that thinks Gauis is still alive and we'll be allying with him in 4.0. Weird huh?

[VargasVermillion]

One thing i don't like about Cid or Lucia is how little they seem to bring up their homeland, i mean i get they don't support their governments current policies but it seems unrealistic how they never bring up details about their lives back home. Like do they have aetheryte travel or something as convenient? is the food bad? do citizens live comfortable lives? do they have good medical care? what are the crime rates? do citizens complain about non garleans stealing their jobs?

Point being they never seem to bring up what they didn't like/miss about their homeland, the dangers within or the people they served under, they just say "I don't like building weapons/spying for the garleans" and that's it, it's like they're just as ignorant as everyone else. Surely they have some information they would like to share about their former masters?

[PArcher]

SNIP

One of the problems you see even in IRL is extremists are often born from immense hardship; extreme oppression (being treated as a "lesser" at best, nothing more than an animal waiting to be slaughtered at worst), losing a war and your lands, the threat of genocide and extermination, and so on are major causes. Even just the perception of such things (even when it is your people's own doing) can lead to this. People turn to this type of religion because there is a promise of revenge, of taking what they feel they deserve, of turning the tables and punishing those who wrong them.

And the Primals often exemplify this.

And why trying to find a peaceful solution is better than killing them all

Then, there's the irony that the Garleans are creating the problem they seek to solve...

[Kallera]

snip

Please do not play the WW2 card as you have. The topic of genocide is more precise, farther reaching in practice than WW2 and has none of the personal attacks you were making on their character. that someone justifies the reason for a military campaign in the context of a fictional story doesn't mean they would approve of it in real life.

Nalien makes a point(cough) in pointing out that religious belief is a far more powerful and destructive weapon in the world of hydelyn. Without the presence of chosen ones to fight off primals and given the damage the primals do when summoned in such manners, the prospect of destroying the believers becomes a tantalizing solution(and one even the eorzean cities would have embraced, Gridania in particular).

We make our RL moral judgements from a position that neither has magic, nor supernatural beings popping out at the whims of the downtrodden, smiting their enemies. In Eorzea, that is a panic many people have been living with without the comfort of a Warrior of Light.(who just happens to survive every half cocked scheme to down said primals) The guys with magitek, half a clue, and the ability to down the local Shiva with miniguns? That looks senisble, teachable, even! You can't teach The Echo, near as I can tell, and some folks, like Garleans, just do not have it, what would their answer be in the face of such destructive faith, born of the light of crystals?

They found their answer in magitek and dominion, as imperfect and destructive as it is.

[Theodric]

Basically...his arguments are as someone saying the Earth is flat, refusing to listen to the evidence otherwise, claiming no one has any proof because he can't tell with his own two eyes. Him never debating, only claiming no one else was willing too, only cements this further, and that rational discussion is a lost cause (as we've seen)

You really can't resist lacing your posts with thinly veiled insults, can you? Still no apology either, I see - but I'd be lying if I said I was surprised by that fact. You don't even seem to be aware of what you're even arguing about because I have repeatedly gone on record stating that I'd love to see Garlemald painted in a more sympathetic light. Which suggests that, yes, I agree that they're doing some pretty awful things.

What I don't agree with, however, is the idea that they are completely and thoroughly evil - or even without justification for their actions. Much of the criticism directed at Garlemald is based off of warped modern day idealism and poorly thought out platitudes as far as I'm concerned. Much of the arguments against them can be summed up as 'war is bad', 'racism is bad', 'slavery is bad'. All are horrific things in the real world to be sure - but in a fictional setting that does not need to be bound by the same limitations it is perfectly possible for fictional organisations and races to be terribly flawed whilst still having noble goals - even if they're misguided.

Furthermore this was a thread based around speculation so ranting at people for speculating is completely and utterly laughable in itself.

So let's stop beating around the bush and agree to disagree (like I've been saying all along, really). You're unlikely to change my mind just like I'm unlikely to change yours - and that's completely fine. You don't need to go on a misguided crusade over someone's interpretation of a story - especially when there's only a tiny portion of people even coming to this particular sub-forum to post on a frequent and consistent basis in the first place. Naturally with such a small pool of posters to deal with the same points of discussion are going to be brought up quite often.

I don't rant and demand that people stop whitewashing the Ala Mhigans or the Scions whenever they're brought up - because I enjoy reading different perspectives and interpretations...and I also firmly believe that morality is a far more complex issue than many believe it to be.

[Frederick22]

He means these, Frederick

I dont see anything that says that Parcher is accusing or atacking theo of being a Nazi supporter.
Those comments doesnt say anything, I think you just misundertood what she said.

[Theodric]

FIRST OF ALL, she did not sya such I thing. Did she said, "you are a nazi lover", no. Seriously is english your first languaje? Beceause it doesnt seem you undertood this properly

SECOND, why just why you wanna get involve and continue this why? Who are you? have you ever showed up on the lore threads before? seriousply please

Dont come here for the "first time" acting so rude and saing off topic things, of a discussion that long since ended. Please.

Are you seriously suggesting that people cannot weigh in with their thoughts just because they don't post here frequently or aren't widely known by a select few? There are a lot of people who view threads and debates here without posting themselves. I did that myself for quite a while before I began posting here.

Do you recall when I mentioned earlier on in the thread that this board can often feel like a biased echo chamber? That attitude doesn't do a whole lot to dispel that view.

[Lauront]

FIRST OF ALL, she did not say such I thing. Did she said, "you are a nazi lover", no. Seriously is english your first languaje? Because it doesnt seem you undertood twhat she said properly.

SECOND, why just why you wanna get involve and continue this why? Who are you? Have you ever showed up on the lore threads before?

Dont come here for the "first time" acting so rude and saing off topic things, of a discussion that long since ended. Please.

Catboys in glass houses shouldn't cast stones... that said, I don't believe anyone appointed you as being in charge of who gets to say what, or when. So do calm down.

I will say, it is interesting to see our moralists-in-chief reveal their true colours, beneath the very thin veneer of politeness.