I guess it's time

[Shurrikhan]

Twelve forbid having a good reputation of putting out non-failure content would save them money in development cost. They waste more money and time putting out stuff like LoV or diadem which isn't properly tested to see if its even worth releasing in their current state. A PTS is never a bad thing regardless of how fast a game releases content. Dead content isn't content....

To which I can only respond with the same suggestion I already gave.

Dead content may not be content, and cutting it just before release—which is all a PTR can do when the issue falls outside of small issues of balancing—may save reputation, but it IS wasted art assets and code development, not to mention additional planning time. Giving view of the initial planning stage ideas to stem provide some player sense is the only way the community itself is going to have an impact on development. Short of that, you only impact release.

A PTR can give substantial feedback for things like gear, fight, and player customization tuning, UI adjustments, QoL features, and other system changes that lay a groundwork of code and assets for which modifications merely to the surface or a small part of development can affect the apparent whole. It is not a means to say whether you like a wholly new near-finished product like Diadem and expect that, when you don't, its development time can be retroactively spent elsewhere.

[KitingGenbu]

...

I like that your response has a lot of thought put into it but one thing is missing. Isn't it amateurish to 1) not be willing to push content back in order to make sure its done well and 2) not have multiple projects on hand and decide which to launch when? Lets make one thing clear that some people do not seem to understand, SE isn't poor. They work on a lot of things and make a lot more money than your average mmorpg company since they have a multitude of projects. Even though Blizzard does tend to work on things at a greater length, their problem is that they tend to blow everything a bit too soon, leaving them with drought. Thus the quality over quantity aspect. I'd rather SE put up a PTS and take an extra month or whatever to release something that it good verses releasing content every 3 months like clock work only having half the content being wasted anyway? They honestly waste more money releasing something subpar on time versus delaying it for it to be better. Why? Look at diadem and the potential changes coming in 3.4. They have to waste time cleaning up that failure so its not a complete waste, wanting to make it more structured and establish gathering queues separated from combat queues only for it not to be properly tested again. We are essentially paying them to test their content lol.

ON A MORE SERIOUS NOTE: Does anyone mind restarting this thread with a new and more attractive title, while also taking the list beetle posted so this can spark a more serious discussion?

[Shurrikhan]

I like that your response has a lot of thought put into it but one thing is missing. Isn't it amateurish to 1) not be willing to push content back in order to make sure its done well and 2) not have multiple projects on hand and decide which to launch when? Lets make one thing clear that some people do not seem to understand, SE isn't poor. They work on a lot of things and make a lot more money than your average mmorpg company since they have a multitude of projects. Even though Blizzard does tend to work on things at a greater length, their problem is that they tend to blow everything a bit too soon, leaving them with drought. Thus the quality over quantity aspect. I'd rather SE put up a PTS and take an extra month or whatever to release something that it good verses releasing content every 3 months like clock work only having half the content being wasted anyway? They honestly waste more money releasing something subpar on time versus delaying it for it to be better. Why? Look at diadem and the potential changes coming in 3.4. They have to waste time cleaning up that failure so its not a complete waste, wanting to make it more structured and establish gathering queues separated from combat queues only for it not to be properly tested again. We are essentially paying them to test their content lol.

ON A MORE SERIOUS NOTE: Does anyone mind restarting this thread with a new and more attractive title, while also taking the list beetle posted so this can spark a more serious discussion?

Agreed completely here.

Heck, I still regret how quickly ARR was rushed out. I would have happily spent a few more months in 1.23 and seen ARR undermechanics and core gameplay systems looked at in more depth. I honestly think Diadem can even now be fixed, that huge amounts of obsolete content could be easily be made relevant again (no more gimmick-ly than our typical tome grind, for sure), and that these things, while not necessarily immediate or new content (that most players will disparage as being a rehash and ultimately the same stale stuff anyways), would absolutely pay off.

Sorry if I came off as defensive in any of this. I just get annoyed when solutions, especially when not ideas towards the game itself, are treated as absolute. (Not by you, just in general.) PTSs often get treated as panacea when they're far from it. I wanted to put things into perspective so we could look at what might better fit the issue being mentioned.

[KitingGenbu]

Sorry if I came off as defensive in any of this. I just get annoyed when solutions, especially when not ideas towards the game itself, are treated as absolute. (Not by you, just in general.) PTSs often get treated as panacea when they're far from it. I wanted to put things into perspective so we could look at what might better fit the issue being mentioned.

Its sad that these things often create sides where there shouldn't be. Devs can't really take threads like these seriously because there isn't really a unified front. Instead of tearing down the ideas people have, probably ask them to explain why they want them. I get some people are perfectly fine with the game as it currently is and that's great for them, but telling people if they dont like it then just take a break only hurts the game (Not you in particular, but people who have throughout the thread).

If people had checked the thread I mentioned before (What about a JPN-NA thoughts corner?), there was a person who was giving some insight as to what the JP community was feeling in regards to the current state of the game.

I'm also sure, since some people have wanted additions to the game even though they said they like the current state, that there is stuff not just from FFXI but other games in general they would like to see. The dev team already proved up to 3.4 that they can pull other things from other final fantasy titles beyond just an event, which can open a flood gate of content that can fit within the confines of this world.

[Velhart]

snip

People don't mind changes to the game, but the idea of completely changing the game and it's core is what people are not for.

[KitingGenbu]

People don't mind changes to the game, but the idea of completely changing the game and it's core is what people are not for.

That's why I think actual communication on the ideas need to be realistically discussed so it shows the positives and negatives to both sides, hopefully resulting in a middle ground of some. I'm sure most people wanting changes are perfectly fine seeing changes actually being made versus getting translated commentary saying the dev team will just follow the same formula.

(Dramatic voice?) Sometimes, I just wish we could have a commonly used second forum, community moderated, that allows us to figure out what matters most to us, pin those issues and sub-issues therein, work in project teams to hash them out before and after peer review, easily track how far different issues how progressed, and actually present that unified front – or better yet, silver platter ideas. Alas...

Sadly my HTML skills are minimal.

This would be great to have, but even having a more solidified link with the JP community on these issues is a step. I wont say that 100% the devs will respond first hand to them since there is no language barrier, but it does increase the chances, plus the JP community tends to keep their threads 'neater' than ours since we like to make 10+ threads on the same issue. They can post that the NA/EU community has the same thoughts as them to a degree, thus increasing community unity.

There will never be a unified front since different people want different things for the game.
For example, someone posted earlier in this thread that they wanted to get rid of normal mode raiding. For me normal mode raids was one of my favourite additions to Heavensward since it allowed me to play through the raid story as it's released unlike Coil where I didn't get past t9 until unsync became a thing.

In general I don't object to new types of content being added. I'm mostly against the restructuring of the rewards system towards horizontal progression as I don't have any interest in farming multiple sets for one job and enjoy the current pace of ilevel increases.

Although I personally dont like having multiple difficulties of the same content, I will agree that getting rid of them at this junction isn't the best option either; however, we do have several minds in this forum so its possible that a middle ground can be achieved if we actually brainstorm rather than dismissing ideas because they dont sound right.

[Alaltus]

Although I personally dont like having multiple difficulties of the same content, I will agree that getting rid of them at this junction isn't the best option either; however, we do have several minds in this forum so its possible that a middle ground can be achieved if we actually brainstorm rather than dismissing ideas because they dont sound right.

Maybe make normal and savage completely different content. Like for example Normal could be for enjoying linear content with story and lore. While Savage could be big sandboxes designed for exploring the perils of the zone and collecting loot, story/lore stuff in savage could just be little tidbits scattered around the zone. It would be cool to get free reign inside Alexander.

[Shurrikhan]

Its sad that these things often create sides where there shouldn't be. Devs can't really take threads like these seriously because there isn't really a unified front. Instead of tearing down the ideas people have, probably ask them to explain why they want them. I get some people are perfectly fine with the game as it currently is and that's great for them, but telling people if they dont like it then just take a break only hurts the game (Not you in particular, but people who have throughout the thread).

If people had checked the thread I mentioned before (What about a JPN-NA thoughts corner?), there was a person who was giving some insight as to what the JP community was feeling in regards to the current state of the game.

I'm also sure, since some people have wanted additions to the game even though they said they like the current state, that there is stuff not just from FFXI but other games in general they would like to see. The dev team already proved up to 3.4 that they can pull other things from other final fantasy titles beyond just an event, which can open a flood gate of content that can fit within the confines of this world.

(Dramatic voice?) Sometimes, I just wish we could have a commonly used second forum, community moderated, that allows us to figure out what matters most to us, pin those issues and sub-issues therein, work in project teams to hash them out before and after peer review, easily track how far different issues how progressed, and actually present that unified front – or better yet, silver platter ideas. Alas...

Sadly my HTML skills are minimal.

[Moomba33]

There will never be a unified front since different people want different things for the game.
For example, someone posted earlier in this thread that they wanted to get rid of normal mode raiding. For me normal mode raids was one of my favourite additions to Heavensward since it allowed me to play through the raid story as it's released unlike Coil where I didn't get past t9 until unsync became a thing.

In general I don't object to new types of content being added. I'm mostly against the restructuring of the rewards system towards horizontal progression as I don't have any interest in farming multiple sets for one job and enjoy the current pace of ilevel increases.