Problems with the strength of gear coming from easy mode Alexander

[Tint]

blubb.

i thinkthey should increase the ilvl of the alex savage gear by 10 lvl. that will make the raid gear more rewarding and will lead to a headstart for the next raid-tier, without being too far ahead (the craftet gear and alex normal will have the same ilvl). if you lower the ilvl of alex normal gear you will make alex normal totally pointless.
with this theay can also increase the ilvl of the 24-people raids to make them more rewarding too.

as example:

craftet gear is 220
alex normal is 220
tome gear is 230
upgraded tome gear s 240
alex savage gear is 250
24-people raid gear is 240

next patch

craftet gear is 250
alex normal gear is 250
tome gear is 260
upgraded tome gear is 270
alex savage gear is 280
24-people raid gear is 270

[Bourne_Endeavor]

This is not at all what the thread is about and if you think it is I don't think you've read any posts. The point is that everyone is already on equal footing because of the odd-numbered catch up patches. Even if you never touch the raid, if you play regularly during the odd numbered patches you are at 98% of a fully geared raider's power. The problem is that for both the raider and non-raider, gearing up during the odd patch is completely pointless since the new easy mode/crafting will reward better gear than the stuff you raided/spent tomes for and you can get it nearly instantly. You spend time getting gear and never get to use it outside of standing around in town.

It also basically means that if a raid group doesn't care about lolminions, lolmounts, or dyes, they can stop logging in after their first final boss clear and be no worse off when the next raid patch drops. It's one less worthwhile thing to log in and do in a game that's already starved for worthwhile stuff to log in and do.

Thing is, SE wants Savage to be more accessible for people. Your preferred system does the precise opposite as it forces people to grind the normal mode until they have enough raid caliber gear to attempt Savage. Furthermore, what purpose would crafted gear even serve if the raid gear equally or outclassed it? We had this in 2.x and crafted gear was basically seen as completely worthless. When 3.4 launches, we'll have...

Normal mode
Crafted gear

Two options for people to gear up depending on their willingness to spend gil in lieu of time. From there, raiders will have a three month lead until 3.5

[Dzian]

Thing is, SE wants Savage to be more accessible for people. Your preferred system does the precise opposite as it forces people to grind the normal mode until they have enough raid caliber gear to attempt Savage. Furthermore, what purpose would crafted gear even serve if the raid gear equally or outclassed it? We had this in 2.x and crafted gear was basically seen as completely worthless. When 3.4 launches, we\\\\'ll have...

Normal mode
Crafted gear

Two options for people to gear up depending on their willingness to spend gil in lieu of time. From there, raiders will have a three month lead until 3.5

SE wants it to be more accessible but players dont want to do it when the rewards and challenge of it are so short lived It is seen as a total waste of time.

Its a big reason why the raiding pop is as small as it is.

The fact that the gear simply isnt "needed" only further takes away the incentive for players to even bother.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

SE wants it to be more accessible but players dont want to do it when the rewards and challenge of it are so short lived It is seen as a total waste of time.

Its a big reason why the raiding pop is as small as it is.

The fact that the gear simply isnt "needed" only further takes away the incentive for players to even bother.

The raid population is small in every MMO. Completing content this difficult is overwhelming a niche activity. As I've said earlier, this won't change no matter what SE does. Coil clears were only higher because it's significantly easier than Alexander. What does it matter if other people have equal gear in 3-4 months? Most hardcore raiders will have the fight killed or be close by that point while other groups simply want to clear it once or twice and aren't necessarily concerned with the gear at all.

[Dzian]

The raid population is small in every MMO. Completing content this difficult is overwhelming a niche activity. As I've said earlier, this won't change no matter what SE does. Coil clears were only higher because it's significantly easier than Alexander. What does it matter if other people have equal gear in 3-4 months? Most hardcore raiders will have the fight killed or be close by that point while other groups simply want to clear it once or twice and aren't necessarily concerned with the gear at all.

every recent mmo i'd say yes, the older ones not so much. the percentage of the player base that participated in endgame in xi or everquest for example was much much higher in part because the rewards were that much more valuable and appealing...

as for difficulty it's not as niche as you might believe. things as simple as psn and xbox / steam achievements show this where there are literally millions of gamers out there that go after as many platinum trophies as they can get or take pride in getting that achievement for beating games on there hardest difficulties. these things are so popular globally that now literally every game must have them. and players will do harder things in games just for an achievement.

the real difference between those games and mmos is that in those games the milestones or challenges don't change. in mmos especially the more vertical ones they do. coil a year ago quite challenging content. coil today. face rollable by 3 people.

I likened it to passing your driving test today. only for them to abolish the driving test next week... suddenly makes the fact you past completely worthless.. and that is a huge motivation killer

[Bourne_Endeavor]

every recent mmo i'd say yes, the older ones not so much. the percentage of the player base that participated in endgame in xi or everquest for example was much much higher in part because the rewards were that much more valuable and appealing...

as for difficulty it's not as niche as you might believe. things as simple as psn and xbox / steam achievements show this where there are literally millions of gamers out there that go after as many platinum trophies as they can get or take pride in getting that achievement for beating games on there hardest difficulties. these things are so popular globally that now literally every game must have them. and players will do harder things in games just for an achievement.

the real difference between those games and mmos is that in those games the milestones or challenges don't change. in mmos especially the more vertical ones they do. coil a year ago quite challenging content. coil today. face rollable by 3 people.

I likened it to passing your driving test today. only for them to abolish the driving test next week... suddenly makes the fact you past completely worthless.. and that is a huge motivation killer

Because MMOs were a relatively new genre, and you had scarily few choices. We're talking fifteen years ago. Nowadays, you have a deluge of games, which inherently splits the overall demographic. FFXI didn't have any larger a raid scene nor did it have the same complexity. Top tier bosses like Absolute Virtue were essentially kamikaze zerg rushes.

... you realize this helps my argument not yours, yes? If I platinum Mass Effect or Dark Souls, my only reward is an achievement or trophy. Not gear. You acquire the very same thing upon clearing Savage. The entire purpose of Savage is for players to test their skills against an extreme challenge-- with the reward being an achievement for doing so. Gear thereafter is basically beating the same challenge multiple times, but making it easier. You've already completed the challenge and have the accompanying bragging rights on your achievement bar. Now, you're just doing it all again either for better gear ahead of other players or the fun of it.

That analogy makes no sense. If the driving test is the challenge, my completion of it is the reward. If it's later abolished, I still have the acknowledgement of having completed it.

[Aniforani]

I would have liked a system where raiding gave unique materia instead of being higher ilvl equipment. Give these materia unique effects, like reduced % of elemental dmg, or hp/mp regen, or reflecting dmg. These materia would be able to lock into gear without any risk of failure. The option would also be available to remove them at anytime, though at the cost of breaking the gear they were attached to. This way raiders are buying crafted gear and then improving upon it as they raid. When a new tier of content comes along they replace the old crafted set with the new one, pop on the materia from the last raid then hunt down the better materia in the current raid. Players could also create unique sets of gear tailor made for certain content. A dungeon where every enemy uses fire element attacks, maybe I'll break out my armor with five -10% fire dmg materia socketed into it. It would also give a reason to go back into older raids if certain types of this materia could only be found in that content.

[LennaLuxie]

I agree with the op that the 2.0 formula was best. The formula to push raiders to keep raiding is to keep the previous raid tier's gear as the highest ilevel gear going into the next raid as it was in coil. You raid, get gear, get BIS, and use that gear to push the next raid tier the fastest bc you have crafted your set's stats perfectly and you know you are ready to go into the next raid tier as the best you can be for your static. The tomestone gear is and always has been there for both casuals and raiders to eventually upgrade and possibly make a BIS set with, it's alternate stats on a same ilevel piece as raid gear, or for casuals a good piece of raid level gear. Raiders motivations are always a mix of glory+gear+fun but the real endgame is becoming BIS, that's the carrot on a stick that keeps ppl farming raids and tomes until they get that perfect set and perfect weapon.

It's the whole split in raid difficulty that's created this monster...they can't really add a normal mode raid with irrelevant gear on arrival (aka midas normal dropping 210 gear) and as long as they keep the formula that way, there's always going to be that feeling for casual players and raiders "What's the point of all this?" if out the gate at the even patches, all gear becomes irrelevant and both raiders and casuals have to replace all their gear with normal mode raid gear. It's not just a problem for raiders that this happens, it hurts the casual player too, it's just that the raiders have put a lot more of blood sweat and tears into that BIS gear set that they throw out the window on even patch launches. For casual players it possibly feels like a treadmill or hamster wheel or something, farm up a tome gear set and throw it out but it's still diminishing of that person's work, they should be able to also bring an upgraded tome set into the new raid/dungeons or whatever the case may be. Making the gear situation out like it only affects raiders is incorrect. I can't really say what the exact solution should be but all the problems stem from having the two different difficulties of raid, maybe it's like another poster said, that savage gear should be an additional 10 ilevels higher like this:
Midas Savage gear: 250
Tomestone upgraded:240
Tomestone: 230
Midas Normal: 220
Gordias Savage: 220
But then the problem becomes that the top two tiers, tomestone upgraded and savage gear, are no longer equal which I don't think would be a good alternative because it leaves both raiders and casuals at a disadvantage with raiders having less gear to choose from and casuals never being able to be equivalent in ilevel.

[WeekendSoja]

Isn't the current system meant to just ease the challenge of entering savage content? Like someone said, "accessibility" is one hurdle to get over. In a game like this that is instances with a low member party setup, it is expected that everyone performs well. Mistakes are costly and can even ruin a run. Rather than iLvl being a main deterrent, I feel like it's people's capability, I can see PF's on my server daily looking for a new "this job" and it's not that they aren't getting anyone, it's that they are repeatedly kicking the new person for bad performance. That is a motivation killer.

In old MMO's, you threw numbers at the harder bosses, even FFXI had things like alliance swapping on pandemonium warden when it wasn't faceroll. Some MMO's that are current today still let you offset lack of skill with

[WeekendSoja]

Stupid phone!!!

With...more people while leaving the boss untouched in status. Since we can't just offset incompetency with more people it makes 8-man perfect savage runs daunting for a lot of people, and for the brave who take up the challenge, current statics don't have the patience anymore. Sad times in Eozera.

In regards to the topic, I don't see much wrong with the current system, people lack of presence in savage is not entirely the fault of the iLvl system, but given the iLvl system, it is surprising not seeing more people tackling what is considered the hardest content just for the completion, and staying in that mindset just means that people may have an inherent fear of disappointing people if the make a mistake or perform inadequately.