I would like to see Classes treated as proper, separate "Jobs"

[Shurrikhan]

In general, cross-skilling always comes back to the same problem; there will always be optimal choices and ultimately the ability to select those traits takes away from job identity and homogenizes them. Not to mention something like mechanical traits are designed with the job in mind, whatever works on archer may not necessarily work on gladiator. For a big change to work, you don't want to take away the identity of an existing class, you want to expand on it.

Agreed; for me there is just one key aim—for the player to love his class/job. But, while that has foremost to do with its core gameplay, it all has to do with its progression and opportunities. In both cases—it comes down to his experiences with it, in and between fights, and perhaps even where it carries over into other classes. I'll prioritize the class itself, sure, but if there's something that adds to the player connection to any and all classes, potentially, rather than homogenizing them, I'll take that. It might not be appropriate until certain changes to how leveling itself works (shared EXP between classes when performing similar functions, or being able to spend EXP on a related class's skill even before you've reached its normal acquisition level on that class, etc.), but I think that's a goal worth undertaking, especially given the lackluster nature of character progression in this game, especially across multiple classes/jobs on the same character.

That said... Is there not a mathematical best in job selection? Yet we still have jobs that aren't technically optimal even in their surrounding compositions, which may already be sub-optimal in a way that advantages that job, attending and clearing content. You're using number-balancing as a reason not to have complexity. It's external complexity in this case, where balance may conflict with what feels "natural" or (therefore) "fun" for a given class/job, and therefore, depending on how you look at it, more appropriate to sacrifice. But it is still that same key argument. I could have sworn you preferred that gameplay & identity be looked at, almost exclusively, before worrying about numbers? I could understand an argument as to this slowing balancing changes necessary for different classes, etc., who are more key to the iconic raiding environment, but to say it's flawed just because balances will be necessary? Just because it might inevitably end up varying a few percent in output over a given fight?

It's both imo. The way the class/jobs are now, you can't reasonably make branching jobs due to how they share abilities and traits from 1-50. The way cross skills work now, they are essentially required (and this really isn't up for debate when a fight demands tank swaps) and you end up having skills that are exactly the same on multiple jobs, taking away from individuality, fantasy and flavor. Jobs not having traits is also locking it to those soul crystals, and leads to button bloating (which cross skilling also does) while being unable to add depth or identity.

It's the adherence to a specific number of stat-increasing traits, the exact same number of traits and abilities given to each class, the exclusion of job traits, similar arbitrary but stubborn rigidities, and the complacency to scarcely differentiate classes integrally—in their gameplay, in their undermechanics, etc.—that cut short any future development

That's exactly what I'm trying to get at though. There's nothing about "a" class system that says that jobs stemming from it must take all the same base skills. You could just as easily give a class more skills than any one job expanding from it can take atop its own unique job skills. Nor is there any rule in a system that happens to have source classes and expanded jobs that the jobs aren't at all allowed to modify the effects of class skills passed on to them. It's not the fact that we have two tiers of broad / customizable and deep / iconic classes-jobs that's holding us back. It's the execution in relating the two to each other.

Idk, it feels really arbitrary when they're essentially forcing you to level other classes just to be able to function in end game (and sometimes not even) content. Specifically abilities like provoke. If it means getting rid of the homogenization of all physical dps getting B4B and invigorate, but instead have 5 new abilties in it's place that gives more depth and identity to each job, I'd rather ditch the cross classing.

This much I definitely agree with. When they continually make fights that necessitate those skills, they just become a part of an awkwardly extended check-list, with yet more components that likely aren't intrinsically fun whatsoever. Being able to explore new avenues though, and being more fluidly able to bring them into your combat style to augment it in ways you wouldn't have expected from your class thematic alone, even if it does in the end fit quite nicely... I would love that.

Of course, we'd first need real class thematics for that to even be a thing.

I'd be fine also with just replacing the cross-class skills with more distinct versions stemming from each separate class; I just don't want to jump to the easier solution without exploring what all character progression advantages a cross-class revamp could offer. One of the things that's always bugged me about this game is how it sells itself as being "all classes on one character" as if that were "alt friendly" when it effectively just means "main + cross-classes per character for best gearing opportunities" and "no quests for your other jobs' leveling, sorry... but at least you get bonus EXP."