I would like to see Classes treated as proper, separate "Jobs"

[Jynx]

No the class system even as it is restricts the designers. Classes are a relic that need to be torn from the game not expanded upon.

[MaeIsMean]

No the class system even as it is restricts the designers. Classes are a relic that need to be torn from the game not expanded upon.

Honestly, the most confusing thing to me as a new player was understanding classes vs jobs and which jobs belonged to which classes. Still hard for me to remember to use the word "Jobs" when speaking of them, and find myself inverting them quite often.

[Shurrikhan]

No the class system even as it is restricts the designers. Classes are a relic that need to be torn from the game not expanded upon.

Let's all assume for a moment that classes ought to be simply removed. Would anything replace those aspects? You've gone from near-zero healing on caster classes to truly zero, removed the majority of (extra-rotational) burst options from all but Bard and Dragoon, wasteful but high-enmity add-grabs from melee, taunts from non-tanks, and enmity management from casters. Does any of this help gameplay?

Now, we could go instead we could revamp the jobs to include similar functions in a unique way. BLM might take Umbral Shroud to temporarily release enmity and generate less over the duration and, alternatively, modifying other abilities, like Ley Lines, to pool duration for upcoming burst needs would remove any ostensible need for Raging Strikes. Similarly, Blood for Blood has never especially been that significant over time nor especially interesting outside of its syncing with other abilities; I'd see that as a reason enough for now to keep it, but in the long run would expect such abilities would be among the first trimmed...

But let me present an alternative. You revamp the classes, filling out more of each class's gameplay and identities through mechanical traits, which can then be cross-classed. Each class gets, say, 5 traits. Each job brings in 2 more. Each class at level 60 can take on 8, while having access to the majority of other class's traits cross-class. Each job can take on 7, with fewer cross-class trait options. Now, by combination of gameplay-affecting mechanical passives, you might just have a Gladiator who is both highly customizable and therefore distinct from a PLD.

In my honest opinion, it's not the classes that are holding us back, or even any adherence to a class system. It's the adherance to a specific number of stat-increasing traits, the exact same number of traits and abilities given to each class, the exclusion of job traits, similar arbitrary but stubborn rigidities, and the complacency to scarcly differentiate classes integrally—in their gameplay, in their undermechanics, etc.—that cut short any future development.

[Jynx]

In my honest opinion.

As the poster above me stated it's really both.

Remove the classes, re balance the jobs to have unique ways to manage the same effect as the old cross class skills while removing a few for abilities that would make the jobs unique upon themselves. But your right they are suborn in making sure that each job gets "X amount of things" and regardless of how that effects how they balance them.

The class system being in play restricts any future development period.

[Terin]

If Classes are treated as separate Jobs, though, that's something totally different than the issues that Yoshi-P mentions. The problem he mentions, is two versions of the same job filling the same role. Instead, you would be presented something more like everyone having a DPS role, as well as a Healer or Tank form.

The only place it becomes confusing is with Arcanist, Summoner, and Scholar. Not sure how to handle that.

Also, I'm all about nostalgia. At the same time, FFXIV (or at least ARR) has managed to build a fascinating world and deep, interest story unique unto itself. The core Classes might not be "classic Final Fantasy Jobs", but I think their original incarnations were interesting enough to warrant a place beside classic Jobs. Classes are only "outdated" because they aren't relevant right now. Giving them unique roles, and perhaps even Artifact Armor, would give them a place in the game.

[Enkidoh]

Except classes are more deeply connected to the game than simply gameplay functions - remember the classes and their guilds are actually connected directly to the game's storyline and the citystates (like, CNJs are Gridania's leaders and overseers and the CNJ's Guild functions as the city's magocratic government, ACNs are used as Limsa Lominisa's customs agents with the ACN Guild the city's customs house, MRD is the class of choice of pirates and in an effort to clean up the class the Guild was absorbed into the Coral Tower, the HQ of the Knights of the Barracuda who are Limsa's police-and-military-rolled-into-one, etc etc). To say nothing that one of the first things a player is made to do as part of the story when first starting out as a new adventurer, they are told to go to the Guild for their class and register with them.

All that (and more) would have to be scrapped, changed and replaced simply to accommodate removing the base classes from the game, a massive undertaking that would upheave the game's fundamental structure so much, I don't think SE would ever even consider doing such a thing. It would just end up wrecking the game too much to even bother with - the old 'pull one loose thread and end up unraveling the whole thing' sort of situation.

[RiceisNice]

Except classes are more deeply connected to the game than simply gameplay functions - remember the classes and their guilds are actually connected directly to the game's storyline and the citystates (like, CNJs are Gridania's leaders and overseers and the CNJ's Guild functions as the city's magocratic government...

Which is why they opted out with the new jobs being a job-only deal. I mean, the class >job thing wouldn't be a problem of its own, it'd just be a "promotion" in theming only. Trying to make it go beyond that in regards to branching jobs is going to cause problems. I mentioned it eariler, the only purpose the class->job promotion that can be reasonably done is for lore reasons. This is the limit of how high a class>job promotion can do in it's current state, unless they have abilities and trait retroactively change in relation to the job crystal you're wearing

[Savagelf]

seem whenever we deal with redesignment of game machinic they more radical as they go

[TankHunter678]

So if I am reading this correctly by this point the general idea to remove the restrictions on future design imposed by the current system is...


1) Axe cross-classing, any functions important to the job/class that were from other classes gets implemented into the job/class via "new" class flavored skills.

2) Axe the connection between a class and a job.
a) With no cross classing the class can proceed to level cap without having to be held back, they can get their LB3 back and get new skills from 50-current level cap, and allowing their function to be changed if needed since they do not need to operate as the base of a job.
b) Jobs can be changed to simply require similar classes (that use the same main weapon basically) to level 30 and be treated as separate things entirely like how Rogue required you to be level 10 in any other class before it could be picked up, allowing their function to be changed if needed. EX: Warrior becomes a Heavy Melee DPS

[madolyn]

so you basically want them to waste resources making alternate fantasy versions of the jobs but as the class itself? so instead of getting new jobs, we would have the original ones, same weapons, essentially same skills except for a couple new ones to make a "gladiator dps and warrior pirate dps" (examples)? On top of this, you would have the classes and jobs rolling on items together. I can see how that would go. "but I need that sword and shield, its gonna boost my dps! All you do is tank and soak damage." -_- No thanks. I'll pass.