A proposed solution for having players become better players.

[Eldevern]

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There are things that calculations can not tell, the ability to adapt to circumstances. There is a basic theory, but not more. The higher dps on a dummy will never replace the real experience in a fight.

Anyway, my point is not to tell if calculations are necessary or not, good or not, it is just all to say that people who come for entertainment will not try, for the most part of them, to do any kind of calculation since it is not their aim and purpose. The question is not to know if it is right or wrong. It is, that's all. What I think has no importance. It is just an observation.

And you have no power to change this, you like it or not.

[RiceisNice]

And the thing is: This can never make you any better, because in order to even realize hitting for 600 is higher than hitting for 300 requires, guess what, calculations. No challenge and no training in the world can make such players better, because these players can't even possibly tell when they've improved - even comparing parser data before and after requires some basic math.

As for training, it only helps you improve your execution. If you have a bad rotation, training will make you better at performing that bad rotation. It will not however lead you to a good rotation. And the same applies for bosses - if you don't realize standing in a mechanic is bad, training won't help you, you'll keep repeating your mistakes.

How fast things die should be a very good indicator on how well you're doing, as well as seeing the scrolling combat text. I mean it's a very general indication to whether or not you're doing proper damage with your skills (seeing a full thrust hit for 300 vs one hitting for 1k+ for example).

Likewise with rotations, its not like the game has variety in rotations, versus complexity in a rotation. There's no "different way" to do a chaos thrust combo for example. And ith the case of standing in AoE, it's a few things that need to be addressed; if a player does not realize they are standing in a telegraph, that's their own fault for being oblivious to something that reoccurs in the game since level 10, but at the same time most aoes from mechanics do so little relative damage it's so easy to not notice if it's actually a consequence to it.

And to know a fight, there is no better way than to train. It is a whole. DPS is not everything, same goes for heal and tanks. To get right reflexs needs training. To know the pace of a boss needs training.

Unless we're talking savage and EX Trials (and i doubt it's the case given the context of the topic at hand), you're severely overestimating the amount of pacing, knowledge and practice needed to get through a boss encounter, especially in dungeons. As I mentioned a while back, new to the fight =/= new to the game. There's no reason that you can't do your 1-2-3 combo consistently and avoid common threats like cleaves or telegraphs.

And honestly speaking, while DPS isn't the only indicator, it's still a big to show what an individual is doing in a given run and their APM/GCD usage. A tank that has more dps than the other is still generating more enmnity or doing proper combos as the situation demands, a healer that is dpsing is more than likely doing than one who only spams cure 1 (and you also have overheal to check for this). You also can't dps when you're dead from ignoring so many mechanics or just being recklessless.

[Zojha]

Anyway, my point is not to tell if calculations are necessary or not, good or not, it is just all to say that people who come for entertainment will not try, for the most part of them, to do any kind of calculation since it is not their aim and purpose.

And that is precisely why we are having threads like these. Some people don't care at all what or how they're doing and if everyone was like that, no content would ever get cleared and everyone would be worse off. As such, it is socially desirable that people do care about their performance in a group. And the question now is, how do you get people to care?



The OP is trying to work with incentives, or positive reinforcement. You do something desirable, you get something nice it turn. It's a fairly proven method in behavior manipulation - How many people are running the daily roulette for the bonus? How many people are running the roulette without the bonus? Exactly. The bonus changes your behavior. As such, I do not agree with your assessment that people's behavior cannot be changed in this regard. I don't find the specific suggestion in the OP particularly suited because it has potential to set bad incentives, but I see little wrong in trying to incentivize people to care about efficiency to a degree. The calculations I did earlier were done in 3 minutes in my head while running back and forth between quest NPCs. I do not think that's too much to ask, I'm not a very smart person, so if I can do it, other should as well.

[raelgun]

How about the solution that used to happen years back in mmo's - players went out of their way to help other people.

Whats the biggest difference between this MMO and every other bar FF11, every other mmo allows DPS meters, this mmo does not and people are unable to break down numbers in order to teach people to understand their ability to play otherwise they risk a ban.

I have mentored 5-6 warlocks back in WoW in their raiding guild and brought their numbers up 30% and helped them become a great asset to their team, the largest reason why I could help them was they could see my numbers and I could see theirs and spend a decent amount of time to chat to them, I didn't handhold these people, I broke stuff down for them to understand the mechanics.

It also doesn't help the fact there are people like yourself that only thinks the only way to teach people to get better is others going out of their way, there should be ingame stuff that forces people to get better, people are wanting SE to add at the core of the game introduce people to get to a reasonable level which right now it doesn't do, people are not asking for people to be excluded, they want them to get better and understand they aren't the only person in a TEAM.

[Eldevern]

Some people who have all their job 60 sometimes sound like they were forgetting their beginning and maybe it is not their first MMO either. Never mind. That's not the point not a problem either. But there are different levels to consider the problem we talk about. Mine is basically this :

Not all people farm dungeons. Not all people remember a fight after two or three runs. People don't learn at the same pace. Not all people are interested in a kind of competition nor HL fight, except to test (as example : I do not PVP at all even with bonus).

That said, I'm not the last to consider we need personal statistics, but not a public parser.

[coco1851]

So remind exactly why you have a problem with rewarding healers who DO DPS? Because if you have no problem I'm not sure why you're arguing on this thread.

First of all I'm 'argueing' because your the one that went on a tangent about paying membership, not me. However, I could sit here and say the same thing over & over but I'm not going to my posts speak for themselves & it would not only be redundant it would be considered non constructive conversation if I kept it up which is a banable offense not sure how serious it is taken in these forums, but somehow I think you knew that in fact that's what I think your goal is. I've played this dance with so many before you to know how this plays out:

1. Newbie post something harsh but true.
2. Troll with elitist attitude looks for a post that's not exactly percise but where they are able to blow out of context, finds newbies post & proceeds to yell at them to get them riled up.
3. They go back & forth a bit, then troll plays stupid waiting for that percise moment for the newbie to insult them so that they can make them look bad in front of everyone.

I'm not going to play this with you & going to skip the insulting, all to make you look good, & to keep the argument going, lol good try though! No need to admit your agenda either because I know how bad that will hurt your ego. Have a nice day sir or madam!

[coco1851]

Oh of course, and I respect everyone's opinion, but the player I quoted simply had a 'I do whatever I want because I pay my sub and that's final' attitude which really isn't benefiting anyone and also isn't a valid argument for anything.

Really? Cause we're did I say I pay my sub & that's final? I merely suggested that that's someone's right, & later changed my wording so that it wasn't misconstrued. I wasn't even referring to myself so how is that my attitude? Please enlighten me! Lmao

[mp-please]

First of all I'm 'argueing' because your the one that went on a tangent about paying membership, not me. However, I could sit here and say the same thing over & over but I'm not going to my posts speak for themselves & it would not only be redundant it would be considered non constructive conversation if I kept it up which is a banable offense not sure how serious it is taken in these forums, but somehow I think you knew that in fact that's what I think your goal is. I've played this dance with so many before you to know how this plays out:

1. Newbie post something harsh but true.
2. Troll with elitist attitude looks for a post that's not exactly percise but where they are able to blow out of context, finds newbies post & proceeds to yell at them to get them riled up.
3. They go back & forth a bit, then troll plays stupid waiting for that percise moment for the newbie to insult them so that they can make them look bad in front of everyone.

I'm not going to play this with you & going to skip the insulting, all to make you look good, & to keep the argument going, lol good try though! No need to admit your agenda either because I know how bad that will hurt your ego. Have a nice day sir or madam!

You're looking way too deep into this.

[raelgun]

Some people who have all their job 60 sometimes sound like they were forgetting their beginning and maybe it is not their first MMO either. Never mind. That's not the point not a problem either. But there are different levels to consider the problem we talk about. Mine is basically this :

Not all people farm dungeons. Not all people remember a fight after two or three runs. People don't learn at the same pace. Not all people are interested in a kind of competition nor HL fight, except to test (as example : I do not PVP at all even with bonus).

That said, I'm not the last to consider we need personal statistics, but not a public parser.

Why is this an excuse for not implementing core game features to enable people facilities to get better?

[bass9020]

How about the solution that used to happen years back in mmo's - players went out of their way to help other people.

Some may remember the mmo days when players could admit they where struggling in a quest and there'd be many offers of help, even people offering to meet in game to get others through the quest.

Nowadays I pity someone coming on the forum admitting they cannot get something done. The abuse directed at them, often personal, wouldn't just be from one or two people.

So what's the result?

Struggling players shy away from asking for help on here, and either continue to struggle or quit the game.
The former remain a target for the people who would rather hurl abuse rather than helping them in the first place.
The latter doesn't seem to bother anyone despite the obvious loss of revenue - which is directly linked to resource development.

The game doesn't need these target results as the priority - as these are retrospective rather than before the event.

The priority - but I fear a near impossible one - is a change in general approach to helping people. For people to come one here without the fear of pages of self satisfied abuse being written against them.

It is a drift in declining help v escalating mockery which has been ongoing - and will only get worse unless the negative parts of the playerbase turn from antagonism to genuine kindness.

You can reverse this as well but people like to ignore or say it never happens. Ive been in plenty of fights or dungeons with new players who are very vile and nasty towards anyone offering help. They cop an attitude and even go as far to ignore any tips or tricks that are offered to them. Most of the time its the new players being abusive.