Do healer need to help doing dps? Especially cleric stance?

[gehrtalert]

This thread is still going?

To answer the original question... Yes. Yes, you do have to dps as a healer. Just do everyone you run with a favor and dps. Even if it's poor numbers, it's still better numbers than you would have standing around with a thumb up your backside.

[_slowpoke_]

What you describe is what I consider to be the middle guys.

I am really not any middle person. If someone doesn't DPS as a healer, I will consider them very mediocre at best, and speaking from experience, most people who refuse to touch Cleric are just very bad. Mind you, that doesn't mean I go around demeaning people about it, quite the opposite. It's just an assessment of their skill as a healer, and I will happily offer anyone who wants to improve themselves and embrace Cleric Stance my advice.

The group I refer to completely leave out the part where you say, "when possible". They are DPS players in healer's clothing.

These people do not exist. They are a strawman invented by people who want to justify their utter mediocrity and refusal to improve. Literally everyone who advocates healer DPS will explicitly or (more often) implicitly mean "when possible" when they tell people to DPS as a healer. Absolutely no one expects healers to stop healing entirely to push DPS unless they are trolling.

All we are saying is that, yes, DPS is part of a healer's job, and if you refuse to do that part of your job along with the rest of your responsibilities, you cannot be considered a good healer.

There is a big difference between a healer who is not comfortable stance dancing, and those who refuse to DPS. It's the latter that doesn't care about other people's time, but both get shunned all the same.

The problem is that both are playing badly either way, and I can't tell their intent or reasons unless they state them, so I won't make assumptions. However, if someone tells me that they are, for instance, uncomfortable with stance dancing, I will accept this, but encourage them to try and offer advice on how to improve. Likewise, if someone outright states their refusal to DPS due to whatever bullshit reasons (like a certain someone in this thread), I will treat them as a lazy, disrespectful, and incompetent asshat - as I said, there's nothing worse than a player unwilling to improve.

[Gemina]

I am really not any middle person. If someone doesn't DPS as a healer, I will consider them very mediocre at best, and speaking from experience, most people who refuse to touch Cleric are just very bad. Mind you, that doesn't mean I go around demeaning people about it, quite the opposite. It's just an assessment of their skill as a healer, and I will happily offer anyone who wants to improve themselves and embrace Cleric Stance my advice.

I'm not calling you a middle person, it was just an analogy encompassing a group of players. Being someone I view as a middle person is a good thing because you are not a heals only healer, or a DPS obsessed healer. Of course, I don't mean to invalidate anyone's experience, but speaking from my own experience, I've been disappointed by healers who don't stance dance, but it was never because they are not using Cleric; it was because as a heals only healer, they couldn't even do that.

These people do not exist. They are a strawman invented by people who want to justify their utter mediocrity and refusal to improve. Literally everyone who advocates healer DPS will explicitly or (more often) implicitly mean "when possible" when they tell people to DPS as a healer. Absolutely no one expects healers to stop healing entirely to push DPS unless they are trolling.

All we are saying is that, yes, DPS is part of a healer's job, and if you refuse to do that part of your job along with the rest of your responsibilities, you cannot be considered a good healer.

I never said anyone expects healers to stop healing entirely to push DPS. I'm talking about the elitist DPS pushers who feel you suck at your job if you are not pushing your DPS to the maximum. Now by this, I'm not saying it is a bad thing to push your DPS, I am saying it is bad to make players feel like they are inadequate. I despise people who point fingers every bit as much as you dislike players who don't strive to improve.

The problem is that both are playing badly either way, and I can't tell their intent or reasons unless they state them, so I won't make assumptions. However, if someone tells me that they are, for instance, uncomfortable with stance dancing, I will accept this, but encourage them to try and offer advice on how to improve. Likewise, if someone outright states their refusal to DPS due to whatever bullshit reasons (like a certain someone in this thread), I will treat them as a lazy, disrespectful, and incompetent asshat - as I said, there's nothing worse than a player unwilling to improve.

The difference between you and I here are what constitutes a bad player. I'm not condoning heals only healers, but not once have I evaluated a healer, or myself by DPS output. Bad player, and bad healer are not the same, and a good healer isn't necessarily a good player. I would welcome the lousiest healer of them all if he/she is a good and nice player over the best healer in the game who is a total elitist jerk. I would happily spend well over the average time spent in an instance if the group is working together, being polite, and trying opposed to clearing an instance as quickly as possible. The latter is such a chore, and it is for a reason because anything that feels like a chore is not fun. It's all about the destination for everyone. So few appreciate the journey, which is far more fun. I'm not here to evaluate the play skills of others. I am here because I want to have fun with whatever it is I am doing, and I don't need the best players in the game to accomplish that. I don't need to clear things as quickly as possible to accomplish that.

Speaking of healers specifically and not players in general, I feel that their abilities as healers is tested under pressure. If you're DPSing, there's no pressure, or shouldn't be anyway. How could you possibly know how good a healer is at healing if they are not healing, unless they are not healing when they should be? IMO, looking to see if a healer has their cleric icon up is a pretty lousy way to evaluate their skill as a healer considering that when their skill as a healer is put to the test, the thing should be off.

[DoUrden]

Let's get something straight. Healers are rarely just 'sitting around' as in 30 seconds or more unless the content is for them easy or they over gear the content. In more challenging content they are very busy and swapping stance is critical. Now, if it is super easy situation, sure go ahead and DPS, but keep in mind that in super easy situation the DPS should also be super easy for them to mow down mobs.

[winsock]

@Gemina
This really isn't a question that has an answer placed somewhere on a scale.
No DPS is 0. DPS is anything greater than 0.
A better phrasing of the question might be:
"Should healers make an effort to contribute to party DPS?"

Imma side with slowpoke in that you're making a strawman argument. Where are these elitists? I can't say I've ever run into anyone who didn't understand that having to heal would lower your max DPS.

Where are the elitists ranking healer skill based solely on DPS? DPS is a tricky thing to begin with. Gear makes a big difference and outside of that, different duties favor DPS from different healers. I'll go far enough to say that 0 DPS is poor performance in the overwhelming majority of cases, as it usually indicates excessive idling and/or unnecessary healing.

[Gemina]

@Gemina
This really isn't a question that has an answer placed somewhere on a scale.
No DPS is 0. DPS is anything greater than 0.
A better phrasing of the question might be:
"Should healers make an effort to contribute to party DPS?"

Imma side with slowpoke in that you're making a strawman argument. Where are these elitists? I can't say I've ever run into anyone who didn't understand that having to heal would lower your max DPS.

Where are the elitists ranking healer skill based solely on DPS? DPS is a tricky thing to begin with. Gear makes a big difference and outside of that, different duties favor DPS from different healers. I'll go far enough to say that 0 DPS is poor performance in the overwhelming majority of cases, as it usually indicates excessive idling and/or unnecessary healing.

Should healers contribute to DPS? Yes, absolutely. At no point in my arguments have I stated that they should not. So if you're telling me that they should, you are beating a dead horse.

Do I care if a healer contributes to DPS? No, I do not. I have ZERO expectations for healers to DPS. It is very much appreciated when they do, and I shrug my shoulders if they don't. If an instance requires the healer to DPS in order to meet the DPS check and clear, then yes ABSOLUTELY I will expect them to DPS.

Every MMO that was/is an MMO has elitists jerks. Why all of a sudden have some of the loudest @ssholes in MMOs become strawmen, and a figment of my imagination? I've had my feelings hurt quite a bit by such players who make me and others feel like they shouldn't even participate despite efforts to do a good job. Because THEIR standards are not met. What I don't see, is all these idle healers you guys talk about. In all the instances I've been as DPS or co healer, in all the video guides I have watched trying to learn an instance, the healer is always contributing to DPS even if very little. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I personally have never seen a healer completely idle the entire instance.

[Amaret]

Let's get something straight. Healers are rarely just 'sitting around' as in 30 seconds or more unless the content is for them easy or they over gear the content. In more challenging content they are very busy and swapping stance is critical. Now, if it is super easy situation, sure go ahead and DPS, but keep in mind that in super easy situation the DPS should also be super easy for them to mow down mobs.

No? Healers are sitting around even in (Progress) raid... especially since the Auto Attacks and Tank Buster aren't as frequently & Hard hitting as it was back in 2.x.
Min 5 Seconds nothing to do? go Cleric Stance.

[_slowpoke_]

Being someone I view as a middle person is a good thing because you are not a heals only healer, or a DPS obsessed healer.

I am one of the most DPS obsessed healers you'll find, and I still hold that this is the only way to achieve mastery of healing. I have very strong opinions about this and I *will* harshly judge people's ability, first of all my own, because I also strife to be my own worst critic. I just try to not be an ass about it, because ripping people apart with expletives is not constructive criticism.

The difference between you and I here are what constitutes a bad player. I'm not condoning heals only healers, but not once have I evaluated a healer, or myself by DPS output. Bad player, and bad healer are not the same, and a good healer isn't necessarily a good player. I would welcome the lousiest healer of them all if he/she is a good and nice player over the best healer in the game who is a total elitist jerk.

When I say "bad player", I refer to their ability and that alone. If someone is behaving like an asshole, I will refer to them as such, good player or not. I consider skill and behavior two independent factors, and I simply am of the opinion that we should not accept mediocrity in either. Always strife to be better, be it in ability or behavior.

I'm not here to evaluate the play skills of others. I am here because I want to have fun with whatever it is I am doing, and I don't need the best players in the game to accomplish that. I don't need to clear things as quickly as possible to accomplish that.

We simply seem to have different mindsets here. I don't view evaluating others and having fun as mutually exclusive. In fact, I think they are both necessary, because - and I speak from experience here - not holding people to higher standards quickly devolves into an exercise in frustration, which is anything but fun.

IMO, looking to see if a healer has their cleric icon up is a pretty lousy way to evaluate their skill as a healer considering that when their skill as a healer is put to the test, the thing should be off.

You keep bringing up specific, isolated scenarios that mean nothing on their own. Of course a healer's skill cannot be measured only by having Cleric on. Neither can it be measured by being able to heal through a difficult situation. It's the big picture. And in that big picture, Cleric is an important factor. So is the ability to function under pressure and deal with unexpected situations, how much unnecessary or inefficient healing they do, and, yes, how much DPS they can do along with all these other things.

[winsock]

if you're telling me that they should, you are beating a dead horse.

I am arguing that there is no scale, it's a boolean situation.
I am referencing this:

There seems to be a bit of a spectrum here. Where...

Concerning strawmen:

Every MMO that was/is an MMO has elitists jerks. Why all of a sudden have some of the loudest @ssholes in MMOs become strawmen, and a figment of my imagination?

You said earlier:
"I'm talking about the elitist DPS pushers who feel you suck at your job if you are not pushing your DPS to the maximum."
^ please point someone out who fits the above description if you want to dispute a strawman.

What I don't see, is all these idle healers you guys talk about.

Idle healers we refer to are the "healz-only" healers that you yourself mentioned in your "spectrum" post.
Mattelot is a good example of one of these from this thread.

[Ninster]

I'm wondering how our dear OP is doing now, on a completely different subject. Hopefully they haven't given up seeing as how this devolved from discussion to warzone so quickly.

From my experience in learning as a healer, I worked on healing first, dealing with different tanks that maybe did or didn't require as much attention as others, then slowly got more and more daring/confident with Cleric Stance and damage dealing. Once you get your regen or shield skill (depending on the job), this dynamic tends to shift more in favor of playing with Cleric Stance, assuming you use your healing tools effectively (Divine Seal, Synastry, mitigation skills, etc.). At the point I'm at, I generally play heals to help with queue times so I don't have as much practice as I used to, but I still feel very comfortable shifting in and out of Cleric as needed. Regarding "personal choices", I DPS mostly because I always want to be doing something. In some cases I misjudge and I overheal or I wait too late to try to save the tank (or a dps), but I'm still always trying to do something.