Players Who Don't pull their weight.

[FinaSel]

What I took from the OP was he was talking about people who are blatant in their IDGAF mentality. What he said didn't strike me as "I expect everyone to be perfect and put forth a Savage level performance," but rather, "I expect people to put in an effort."

Thank you. Perhaps I read too much into it.

After that first dungeon I felt really down because I couldn't live up to my own expectations. I kept worrying about what the other person in the group might have thought of me.
When I saw many posts like "At level 60 everyone should know how to play their job.", I felt like it can be a little unrealistic in some cases.

[Seraphix2407]

How is refusing to carry someone an asshole move?
While the bad play is supported and almost without any form of consequences, the players who dare to desire some sort of improvement are being labeled "elitists". The thing is, most of the elitists perceived by this community aren't elitists by choice, the lack of support when it comes to seeking improvement of the player base makes them elitists and it forces them to eventually become more extremist in their opinions than they would have been otherwise.

I could honestly not said it any better, you hit spot on. This is excaxctly how I feel. If people gonna keep wipe because they think it's fun and ignore the fact they are the ones being bad and wipe a party aka ignoring the 7 other players, why shouldn't I ignore bad players? If you want a carry better pay me gil then.

[Kerii]

Thank you. Perhaps I read too much into it.

After that first dungeon I felt really down because I couldn't live up to my own expectations. I kept worrying about what the other person in the group might have thought of me.
When I saw many posts like "At level 60 everyone should know how to play their job.", I felt like it can be a little unrealistic in some cases.

I know how you feel. I have poor vision (I have to repeat that a lot), and it makes me paranoid when I make mistakes. The only thing you can do is study up about your job, do extra research about how dungeons and fights work, and just keep pushing along hoping you're doing better each attempt. It is an unrealistic expectation that everyone should play to some absurd standard, but that doesn't mean you should throw in the towel and completely dismiss them either.

[Archaell]

"I play this job for fun. My friends don't care if I'm bad, and think I should play whatever I want regardless of what you think." How does one even argue with that?

That's exactly it. You can't argue with that because it makes sense. Everybody should be allowed to play the way they want to play.

Yet this doesn't work well when everybody is rewarded the same no matter how much they contribute and when players who don't care are put in groups with players who do care.

Forcing players to change their play-style by suggestions is not going to work. The system has to be tuned so that they want to change it - like the individual rewards instead of group ones as has been mentioned. Unless players see that they are losing something by being bad they are not going to consider "wasting time" to get better.

[Kaurie]

That's exactly it. You can't argue with that because it makes sense. Everybody should be allowed to play the way they want to play.

It literally makes zero sense.

[RiceisNice]

Thank you. Perhaps I read too much into it.

After that first dungeon I felt really down because I couldn't live up to my own expectations. I kept worrying about what the other person in the group might have thought of me.
When I saw many posts like "At level 60 everyone should know how to play their job.", I felt like it can be a little unrealistic in some cases.

It'll vary from player to player. I mean honestly, is there a good reason to not use abilties like BotD or enochian at level 60? Just using it gives a damage buff (and in the case of DRG, combo extensions for better TP effiency and overall more dps). I can say at least on my end, people by the time they hit 60 should at least have the fundamentals of the game down, such as combos, basic job mechanics (including umbral/astral for BLM and how your III spells work in that regard), and not standing in AoE.

It's astounding how people justify their deaths in Nidhogg normal as "being new to the fight"...when their deaths were from standing in the telegraphed horrid roars and hot tails...you're not new to the game.

[Archaell]

It literally makes zero sense.

It makes sense in the regard that it is just a game and games are played to have fun or to get other sorts of entertainment, satisfaction.

What doesn't make sense is forcing your fun on a group of people who are not like-minded and here comes the disparity - Forcing others to carry you is easily done, while forcing others to play better almost impossible and on top of that punishable by the harassment clause or condemned by the social justice league.

[Kaurie]

It makes sense in the regard that it is just a game and games are played to have fun or to get other sorts of entertainment, satisfaction.

What doesn't make sense is forcing your fun on a group of people who are not like-minded and here comes the disparity - Forcing others to carry you is easily done, while forcing others to play better almost impossible and on top of that punishable by the harassment clause or condemned by the social justice league.

It is like playing any game, if a person is not playing properly to the detriment of the fun of those around them, then that isn't cool.

Imagine playing Pictionary and someone draws a picture of a windmill, yet the card said to draw a picture of a waterfall. They just laugh it off and say hey whatever, I'm playing the way I want. Well..the way you want is wrong.

Imagine I went into a party as a SCH and pulled everything and refused to heal or summon my pet and said, I play to have fun and this is how I have fun.

There are 1000's of situations where "I play how I want" doesn't make sense, because it goes against the pre-established rules that either set formally by the game developers or informally by the game community. It's disrespectful, and not how one should conduct them-self in an environment with others.

The second half of your post doesn't make sense, I never suggested I am forcing my way on anyone. The thread is about people who refuse to play their class the way the game is intended to be played.

[MaeIsMean]

How is refusing to carry someone an asshole move?

I guess it depends on your perspective. I'm pretty casual, so I don't dare touch my toes into savage zones, because it's not my thing. I could perform well in them if i chose, I am not unskilled at all, I just don't really have the time. But if I am doing a DF, and my tank happens to be a badly programmed bot (has happened), I don't tell him to get better or I'll leave. I just laugh with the other people in the group about how ridiculous he is, and get the dungeon done in spite of it. If he was truly being a detriment, we would have kicked him, laughed at him, and either disbanded or waited for a replacement to finish. I can see if it was harder content and someone is being lazy/uncooperative, but there are tools for dealing with that that don't involve "offering help and leaving if they don't take it." I dunno. To me, you either want to help or you don't, but you don't offer, then "pick up your toys and go home" when they don't accept the help.

[Archaell]

The second half of your post doesn't make sense, I never suggested I am forcing my way on anyone. The thread is about people who refuse to play their class the way the game is intended to be played.

Sorry for that, of course I meant the "general" you as an example.

The game is intended to be played in positive environment. The better players help the less good players and such. The failure is that the perception isn't "better players should help the less good players to improve" but instead the community supports "the better players should carry the less good players". The fun of individuals being more important than fun of the group. My second half of the post was pointing out that the players who want to play the game "as it is intended" (in the sense you mean it) are at disadvantage because the ToS and even systems like leave penalties support the players who don't want to play it "as intended" (in the sense you mean it).

Example:

You get a person seeking carry in your group.

1) You can vote kick them and fail at it while being kicked yourself = punishment
2) You can vote kick them, fail at it and being stuck with the group = punishment
3) You can vote kick them, fail at it and leave while getting the penalty = punishment
4) You can try to advise the person, while probably getting shouted at for wasting even more time of another party member = punishment
5) You can try to advise the person, while probably getting shouted at by someone who has to meet their daily white knight quota = punishment
6) You can try to advise the person, while probably being ignored = as well "punishment"

In most cases the person getting punished for the bad play is the person who is trying to deal with it instead of the one doing it.