Alienation of Dedicated and Skilled players

[Vespar]

This entire thread just sounds like an "I'm an entitled little shi*te, give me everything on a silver platter..." kinda thread.

If you arent enjoying yourself here, then find a new game. That by no uncertain terms means that SE is alienating you. The entire premise behind XIV has always been to remain fair to all. Everyone regardless of playtime or style, can remain relevant. Those who have more time to play actually do come out with more things achieved than those who dont, it just depends on how they choose to use that time. If your playing every day all day and only doing battle content, well no wonder you're burned out. There is way more than just raiding/battles out there. If you've no interest in the other content then that not the fault of SE or others. Find another game to fill the void. Otherwise, maybe try placing yourself in various other contents, like crafting, gathering, gardening, hunts, etc. There's so much stuff to do I am usually wishing I had more time to do it...

As for the OP's stance on wanting horizontal progression, Yoshi-P stated why they didnt want to do this, because of the negative impacts it had with XI. But if you want your Horizontal progression, please, go play XI.

[Lorielle]

This entire thread just sounds like an "I'm an entitled little shi*te, give me everything on a silver platter..." kinda thread.

If you arent enjoying yourself here, then find a new game. That by no uncertain terms means that SE is alienating you. The entire premise behind XIV has always been to remain fair to all. Everyone regardless of playtime or style, can remain relevant. Those who have more time to play actually do come out with more things achieved than those who dont, it just depends on how they choose to use that time. If your playing every day all day and only doing battle content, well no wonder you're burned out. There is way more than just raiding/battles out there. If you've no interest in the other content then that not the fault of SE or others. Find another game to fill the void. Otherwise, maybe try placing yourself in various other contents, like crafting, gathering, gardening, hunts, etc. There's so much stuff to do I am usually wishing I had more time to do it...


As for the OP's stance on wanting horizontal progression, Yoshi-P stated why they didnt want to do this, because of the negative impacts it had with XI. But if you want your Horizontal progression, please, go play XI.

> Please go play XI

Funny part is they already are. Moot suggestion is moot.

I really don't understand why people are against having more content in the game that can just potentially make it more than what it is? Don't like it? Play something else? The issue is we like the game and we want to see it grow. We want to keep playing it. We're not "burnt out". There's nothing to be "burned out" on. We could quit for months. Come back and be caught up within a few hours or a couple days given how the game is. Then we're back at the same issue. Going to tell us to play something else again? We participate in this content just as much as everyone else. But again, time and time again, we keep asking for ways to make this content more relevant. More meaningful. Some reason to do it more than just "Capping Lore tomes" or "Next relic progression that's going to get destroyed for the next relic in line"

Make a suggestion to make the game more interesting, it gets shut down. Make a post wanting more mounts and glamour items that add nothing more than a look and it gets sung to high heavens. Sigh.

[Underdog2204]

We could quit for months. Come back and be caught up within a few hours or a couple days given how the game is.

Oh yes I can see why no-one would like this precise aspect of the game... It is the very reason I do come back because I know I don't have to quit my social life and job just to play catch-up. But ofc you think that everyone would love for this to be changed to suit you.

Do I care the relic is redundant now? Nope because we have anima. Do I care anima will get replaced? Nope because I'll look forward to that replacement. Do I like that relics can be made pretty easily now for people who want to retain it's style? Yes I do. Do I want newbies to have to go through months of grind to be considered relevent? Nope I don't.

People just don't want what you suggest.

[Lorielle]

Oh yes I can see why no-one would like this precise aspect of the game... It is the very reason I do come back because I know I don't have to quit my social life and job just to play catch-up. But ofc you think that everyone would love for this to be changed to suit you.

Do I care the relic is redundant now? Nope because we have anima. Do I care anima will get replaced? Nope because I'll look forward to that replacement. Do I like that relics can be made pretty easily now for people who want to retain it's style? Yes I do. Do I want newbies to have to go through months of grind to be considered relevent? Nope I don't.

People just don't want what you suggest.

Huuuh....I wonder where people are getting the idea you had to quit your social life and job just to make progress in another game. Was this a jab at XI? It had to have been. Was this your personal experience talking or just something you're parroting? No one had to put that much time in one sitting. Much like you guys keep telling US to do. Play in different sessions. So you don't feel "burnt out". That's how it works, right? To me, I consider XI just being that much more immersive that you forget where the time has gone. But to each their own, yes?

You're right. I want everything changed to suit me. This game should be centered and catered around what I want! /sarcasm
I'm giving you guys more credit than you want to believe in being able to adapt. I'm not even asking for an overhaul to anything. So I don't get why you get off on saying X time required to catch up needs to change to suit me. But whatever helps you paint yourself the good guy, I guess.

I get it. You don't care much for depth at all. That's fine. Some people do. Some people don't. The topic is just asking for more to work with. Some depth!

And while you may not want the newbies to go through the content to catch up, others don't agree with that sentiment. How do I know? Well those leveling potions seem to share a great view of people's standpoint. But shouldn't we implement those so the game can be casual? Everyone should be on equal footing right? Why learn how to play a game? Why challenge yourself to be better? Why do any of this?

The value of hard work seems to matter very little these days.

[Underdog2204]

Huuuh....I wonder where people are getting the idea you had to quit your social life and job just to make progress in another game. Was this a jab at XI? It had to have been. Was this your personal experience talking or just something you're parroting? No one had to put that much time in one sitting. Much like you guys keep telling US to do. Play in different sessions. So you don't feel "burnt out". That's how it works, right? To me, I consider XI just being that much more immersive that you forget where the time has gone. But to each their own, yes?

You're right. I want everything changed to suit me. This game should be centered and catered around what I want! /sarcasm
I'm giving you guys more credit than you want to believe in being able to adapt. I'm not even asking for an overhaul to anything. So I don't get why you get off on saying X time required to catch up needs to change to suit me. But whatever helps you paint yourself the good guy, I guess.

I get it. You don't care much for depth at all. That's fine. Some people do. Some people don't. The topic is just asking for more to work with. Some depth!

And while you may not want the newbies to go through the content to catch up, others don't agree with that sentiment. How do I know? Well those leveling potions seem to share a great view of people's standpoint. But shouldn't we implement those so the game can be casual? Everyone should be on equal footing right? Why learn how to play a game? Why challenge yourself to be better? Why do any of this?

The value of hard work seems to matter very little these days.

It just goes right over your head huh? It's not me who's asking to overhaul the way things are (and is why the game is sucessful) and change it to something it never was.

Not a jab at FFXI per say more like basic experience that can be applied to every single MMO you are saying this one should emulate... Since you yourself applied it to FFXI you can consider it relevent to the argument.

No it doesn't in virtual games because it always amounts to nothing and it's not me who has been unable to adapt to the changing game market. You are stuck a decade ago it seems.

I think based off of how wiping city feedback has been, people are ready for more depth and content that has more teeth than what exists now. The real world does not work in slippery slopes like you present. Incorporating some of those suggestions does not mean that you will have to quit your job or give up your family to progress in the end game. Stop being hyperbolic, not everyone wants to play the final fantasy rendition of club penguin.

Oh so changing gear and having weapon grinds stay the way they are constantly (because they are "relevent" all the time), having to get multiple amounts of armour and weapons to suit different senarios etc isn't going to force people to gind all this stuff out? Yeah I see how that makes sense /s.

You are using a strawman and zero idea my preference in regards to difficulty. Boss difficulty and forced grind is not even remotly the same thing if anyone is being hyperbolic it is yourself - "not everyone wants to play the final fantasy edition of club penguin"... Really -_-

I know this wasn't to me, but I have to respond to that. I do savage content, what does players like yourself call me? Hardcore. Why? because I do savage. I work 8-12 hours from 4-6 times a week, including hanging out almost everyday after work with my friends and then gym for 2 hours which is 5 times a week. And I still manage to get my shit done. You see this isn't all about catch up either, the catch up itself is easy phase and once it's done (which takes almost no time) there is nothing to do. What Lori wants is content that you can do when you log on and still have things to do, instead of playing catch up day and night. Lets face it catch up patches are for the majority right? Then once they catched up there is nothing to do, again. I find it funny I have more life and do more things than most people and still can pull things off easier and faster than most. I need some one to explain that to me, that be great

Yes that's fine I don't really care what you call yourself tbh.

Ok so now add ontop of that having to get multiple armour sets for the content you are doing at the moment and holding onto them forever incase they "are relevent". Now got get 5 different weapons, 10 different rings etc. Then take a break come back and see how easy it is to catch up to do that content again.

And this is just for one of the jobs you might enjoy playing.

Anyways, to reply to your points. Yeah, people have been asking for more horizontal progression for ages. Gear sets, special effects, different stats, etc. Just because YOU don't want it does not mean I good portion of players do. Just do a quick forum search and get yourself some facts n data served up straight from the source. People have been creating threads since 2.0 asking about horizontal progression.

Yes they have and they still don't have it.

Is the game dead yet like they said it would be? Seems ok to me.

So it seems that "good portion of people" what to force their horizonal progression onto the larger community that didn't buy into that.

[zosia]

It just goes right over your head huh? It's not me who's asking to overhaul the way things are (and is why the game is sucessful) and change it something it never was.Not a jab at FFXI per say more like basic experience that can be applied to every single MMO you are saying this one should emulate... Since you yourself applied it to FFXI you can consider it relevent to the argument.

Yes it does in virtual games because it always amounts to nothing and it's not me who has been unable to adapt to the changing game market. You are stuck a decade ago it seems.



Oh so changing gear and having weapon grinds stay the way they are constantly (because they are "relevent" all the time), having to get multiple amounts of armour and weapons to suit different senarios etc isn't going to force people to gind all this stuff out? Yeah I see how that makes sense /s.

You are using a strawman and zero idea my preference in regards to difficulty. Boss difficulty and forced grind is not even remotly the same thing if anyone is being hyperbolic it is yourself - "not everyone wants to play the final fantasy edition of club penguin"... Really -_-

A strawman? lol. Tossing out a fallacy does not make you smart or lend your statements credibility. Please explain where I built up a false narrative to refute it.

Anyways, to reply to your points. Yeah, people have been asking for more horizontal progression for ages. Gear sets, special effects, different stats, etc. Just because YOU don't want it does not mean a good portion of players do. Just do a quick forum search and get yourself some facts n data served up straight from the source. People have been creating threads since 2.0 asking about horizontal progression.

As to the strawman point, no. No I did not create some fictitious over exaggerated narrative to prove my point. You were the one being hyperbolic carrying on about irl obligations and remaining relevant in an endgame. Maybe my club penguin comment was hyperbolic, but certainly not a strawman, lol.

Also, you never really addressed my points about people wanting more depth in this game. You predicated most of your response as me trying a straw-man tactic while side stepping my point.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy

Ok so now add ontop of that having to get multiple armour sets for the content you are doing at the moment and holding onto them forever incase they "are relevent". Now got get 5 different weapons, 10 different rings etc. Then take a break come back and see how easy it is to catch up to do that content again.

There's that slippery slope again. Does it really need to be 10 rings? How about a more REASONABLE amount, like 3-4 rings. How about gear that could be relevant for more than six months? Why does it have to be "forever"? You know at best gear would only be relevant for an expansion? Even then, powerful or relevant gear would probably only last a few tiers despite having desirable effects.

Hyperbolic, lol.

Yes they have and they still don't have it.

Is the game dead yet like they said it would be? Seems ok to me.

So it seems that "good portion of people" what to force their horizonal progression onto the larger community that didn't buy into that.

Just because we don't have horizontal progression does not mean anything about the number of people who want it. It actually means very little outside of the fact that we don't horizontal progression.

More inventory space
Ishgardian Housing
Cooldown reset upon wipe
Egi glamours
etc etc etc

There are plenty of ideas that are desired by many players and we are yet to have. Just because an idea is not implemented does not mean there is a correlation between that idea and how badly players want it. We still can't queue with chocobos out, but that does not imply the majority of players don't want that feature. There is simply other limitations preventing that feature.

Not having a great feature won't kill the game. Please don't assume that I agree with all the pro horizontal progression replies in this thread. Please show me where I said not having horizontal progression would kill the game?

[HeavenlyArmed]

It just goes right over your head huh? It's not me who's asking to overhaul the way things are (and is why the game is sucessful) and change it to something it never was.

Not a jab at FFXI per say more like basic experience that can be applied to every single MMO you are saying this one should emulate... Since you yourself applied it to FFXI you can consider it relevent to the argument.

No it doesn't in virtual games because it always amounts to nothing and it's not me who has been unable to adapt to the changing game market. You are stuck a decade ago it seems.



Oh so changing gear and having weapon grinds stay the way they are constantly (because they are "relevent" all the time), having to get multiple amounts of armour and weapons to suit different senarios etc isn't going to force people to gind all this stuff out? Yeah I see how that makes sense /s.

You are using a strawman and zero idea my preference in regards to difficulty. Boss difficulty and forced grind is not even remotly the same thing if anyone is being hyperbolic it is yourself - "not everyone wants to play the final fantasy edition of club penguin"... Really -_-

No one is even necessarily asking for a complete overhaul to anything. I've already explained how it would be very easy for SE to make some small changes and add a few small rewards that would go a long way to helping ease he problems people like the OP are experiencing. The examples you give aren't the only way this can work, and the fact that you absolutely have to attack the most extreme position possible on this rather than even trying to hear out what people's suggestions are shows that you don't really have a good argument to make in the first place.

This entire thread just sounds like an "I'm an entitled little shi*te, give me everything on a silver platter..." kinda thread.

If you arent enjoying yourself here, then find a new game. That by no uncertain terms means that SE is alienating you. The entire premise behind XIV has always been to remain fair to all. Everyone regardless of playtime or style, can remain relevant. Those who have more time to play actually do come out with more things achieved than those who dont, it just depends on how they choose to use that time. If your playing every day all day and only doing battle content, well no wonder you're burned out. There is way more than just raiding/battles out there. If you've no interest in the other content then that not the fault of SE or others. Find another game to fill the void. Otherwise, maybe try placing yourself in various other contents, like crafting, gathering, gardening, hunts, etc. There's so much stuff to do I am usually wishing I had more time to do it...

As for the OP's stance on wanting horizontal progression, Yoshi-P stated why they didnt want to do this, because of the negative impacts it had with XI. But if you want your Horizontal progression, please, go play XI.

My below response basically works for this.

Okay, I missed something. You can cut the attitude.

Nonetheless, we've now circled back to "what purpose does this serve?" You won't be discriminated against for being slightly below optimal, but you will be told what the best options are. Not choosing them at that point is you simply being stubborn for no reason other than to be unique. An example would be a tank wanting to meld Parry on their raid gear because they like the potential mitigation. It's passable in most content, but why would you do it once you know Crit/Det are better? The same applies to a buff on a weapon.

Yes, but we're still arguing optimization. People will always pick the best option once they know which it is. That doesn't necessarily mean you couldn't add an effect to weapons for some bit of flavor. It does, however, mean people will inevitably gravitate to whatever the community deems the best weapon.

I had the attitude to begin with because you're being the textbook definition of obtuse about this. Even in terms of a more moderate stance, one that asks for things to be changed in such a way that harm cannot possibly be done, you still feel the need to argue against it because you don't feel that it'd be worth anything, despite plenty of people telling you it'd be worth something to them. Do you have full BiS? No? But why not? Everyone says that set is the best thing for you to have, why don't you have it?! Do you see the problem with your argument yet?

Yeah, exclusivity is one of the many reasons that not everyone will gravitate 100% towards what the community deems "the best". There will also be some people who don't like how it feels to play with that certain bonus, who can instead choose the very slightly less optimal set. Will those people ever get into a world first guild? Probably not, but they don't want to anyway. The point about flavour is just that we want there to be some flavour at all. We've been fed the same thing for so long that anything we could once taste in it has long since been adjusted to and now it just seems bland. But you argue against trying a different spice because... you don't think it'll help unless we use so many different spices that we may as well be tearing up the original recipe, and then most people won't like it anyway? All we want is for SE to try giving us a new flavour. Why can't we have that?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I had the attitude to begin with because you're being the textbook definition of obtuse about this. Even in terms of a more moderate stance, one that asks for things to be changed in such a way that harm cannot possibly be done, you still feel the need to argue against it because you don't feel that it'd be worth anything, despite plenty of people telling you it'd be worth something to them. Do you have full BiS? No? But why not? Everyone says that set is the best thing for you to have, why don't you have it?! Do you see the problem with your argument yet?

Yeah, exclusivity is one of the many reasons that not everyone will gravitate 100% towards what the community deems "the best". There will also be some people who don't like how it feels to play with that certain bonus, who can instead choose the very slightly less optimal set. Will those people ever get into a world first guild? Probably not, but they don't want to anyway. The point about flavour is just that we want there to be some flavour at all. We've been fed the same thing for so long that anything we could once taste in it has long since been adjusted to and now it just seems bland. But you argue against trying a different spice because... you don't think it'll help unless we use so many different spices that we may as well be tearing up the original recipe, and then most people won't like it anyway? All we want is for SE to try giving us a new flavour. Why can't we have that?

Your introductory post essentially called people idiots who post here because they have a differing opinion. News flash, your ideas of how things ought to be improved are not necessarily the end all be all. And in spite of your smugness, you have yet to refute my "textbook definition." Plenty of people? Do you mean a handful in this thread. The raid and forum communities make up a decidedly small portion of the overall fanbase. I'm not debating against horizontal progression out of some personal vendetta towards the system. I'm point to the statistical disparage between players such as yourself and the majority.

Let's take a step back and consider something. The most popular server in the entire game is Balmung; a server dedicated to writers who create characters as though they were writing a story. Likewise, glamour is exceptionally popular-- to the extent people were elated over a maid outfit and the release of FFX minions. Sleipnir has brought in an estimated million dollars since being put on the Cash Shop. That's the equivalent of nearly 80,000 one month subscribers for a horse that cannot even fly.

Simply put, the overwhelming majority prefer casual to midcore content. If the amount of people your post implies cared about horizontal progression, or their gear at all, FFXIV wouldn't continue to be as popular as it is. This has nothing to do with my personal interests or preferences, but statistics.

And in response to your question regarding my gear. No, I don't. Why? Because I don't need it yet to progress from where I am in the Main Story. In fact, I am overgeared, and will remain so for a longtime still. The only reason I don't have Eikon gear on MNK is because it isn't level 60 yet. I opted to level crafters so I could make it all myself. Once I reach 60, I'll craft it and work on my weeklies to upgrade to eventual BiS. Like everyone else interested in some form of raiding.

I fail to see the point you're trying to make here. People who do not have ilvl 220+ gear either don't care about raiding, and therefore gear stats are irrelevant to them, or are newer players who simply haven't progressed far enough.

Despite your prior rebuttal several pages back, you just described the STR vs. VIT debate that inevitably saw STR tanking cannibalize its counterpart when new tanks asked veteran players what gear they should choose and were told STR accessories. The same will happen with putting buffs or traits on equipment. New players will ask veterans what they think is best, or look it up themselves, and grind for it. After all, why wouldn't they? And yes, I'm aware you could balance things better so one stat didn't dominate the other so readily, but people will still opt for the perceived "best" because of the aforementioned reasons.

An even better example of this is healer DPS. Look at how quickly people who refuse to DPS as healers are frowned on or outright shunned. No content in this game actually requires any healer DPS, but those who refrain are deemed "lazy" for no other reason than their preference isn't considered optimal. In fact, you'll often see people more forgiving of inexperienced players messing up mechanics than if a prefer says "I only want to heal because I don't like DPSing." Melding is another comparable example. DPS and Tanks are toward Crit and Det no matter what despite having other options like Skill Speed. Why? Crit and Det are better.

Redesigning the current gear structure so some pieces can have a trait buff or stat effect that serves no real purpose beyond an illusion of choice will pull resources away from new content, fights and etc. And the majority of players either won't care about it whatsoever, or determine the BiS and choose that.

[Seraphix2407]

Ok so now add ontop of that having to get multiple armour sets for the content you are doing at the moment and holding onto them forever incase they "are relevent". Now got get 5 different weapons, 10 different rings etc. Then take a break come back and see how easy it is to catch up to do that content again.

And this is just for one of the jobs you might enjoy playing[.

I play DRG, sch and war, and before 3.3 was out all of them was over 228. FFXI had setups you could use before you had the real end game gear,they can easily do it in this game too.
More content = more ways to get gear = different type of content so catch up gear is easier to obtain. The way it is, is simply boring and too linear, they should add more options.

[zosia]

Oh yes I can see why no-one would like this precise aspect of the game... It is the very reason I do come back because I know I don't have to quit my social life and job just to play catch-up. But ofc you think that everyone would love for this to be changed to suit you.

Do I care the relic is redundant now? Nope because we have anima. Do I care anima will get replaced? Nope because I'll look forward to that replacement. Do I like that relics can be made pretty easily now for people who want to retain it's style? Yes I do. Do I want newbies to have to go through months of grind to be considered relevent? Nope I don't.

People just don't want what you suggest.

Speak for yourself.

Also,



I think based off of how wiping city feedback has been, people are ready for more depth and content that has more teeth than what exists now. The real world does not work in slippery slopes like you present. Incorporating some of those suggestions does not mean that you will have to quit your job or give up your family to progress in the end game. Stop being hyperbolic, not everyone wants to play the final fantasy rendition of club penguin.