Alienation of Dedicated and Skilled players

[WellFooled]

Tbh while I would enjoy some gear lasting a little bit longer I HATE the idea of a weapon lasting for years or so.

I feel I would get bored with just the same gear like that

The joy of a good horizontal system is that you wouldn't have just the one weapon to pick from, but perhaps dozens of different weapons that all played slightly different. One sword's auto attack might be a small AoE, another sword's attack might occasionally apply a dot to the enemy, another sword might funnel emnity from your party to yourself with each blow, another could have a small chance to summon a friendly Beastman to help you fight for 10 seconds every time you parry, etc. It wouldn't be one weapon that lasted, but a whole collection all with different strengths,

[Reinha]

The joy of a good horizontal system is that you wouldn't have just the one weapon to pick from, but perhaps dozens of different weapons that all played slightly different. One sword's auto attack might be a small AoE, another sword's attack might occasionally apply a dot to the enemy, another sword might funnel emnity from your party to yourself with each blow, another could have a small chance to summon a friendly Beastman to help you fight for 10 seconds every time you parry, etc. It wouldn't be one weapon that lasted, but a whole collection all with different strengths,

For example, if Bismarck dropped this cool cleaving weapon, Ravana dropped a dot weapon, Thordan dropped a threat weapon, Sephirot dropped a spawn weapon and Nidhogg dropped a weapon that radiates healing to everyone. If I like the idea of being a passively cleaving melee and obtain that weapon when it comes out in the first patch, what am I supposed to do in the next patches when there are no upgrades I like for a weapon? If you make one weapon better than the others and give a reason to run the next fights, it becomes vertical progression.

The nature of horizontal progression is that less people run multiple pieces of content, because they are only aiming for one or two pieces of gear out of many options, instead of obtaining each option to continuously increase their power (vertical progression). We can't swap gear in combat and we have restricted inventory space so people would feel discouraged to run all the content for rewards and get all the different pieces if they are the same strength. This means less groups running each piece of content, unless you make it take a very long time to obtain your desired piece (the same people would run that instance/content more which would populate said instance/content).

[Reinha]

For example, if Bismarck dropped this cool cleaving weapon, Ravana dropped a dot weapon, Thordan dropped a threat weapon, Sephirot dropped a spawn weapon and Nidhogg dropped a weapon that radiates healing to everyone. If I like the idea of being a passively cleaving melee and obtain that weapon when it comes out in the first patch, what am I supposed to do in the next patches when there are no upgrades I like for a weapon? If you make one weapon better than the others and give a reason to run the next fights, it becomes vertical progression.

The nature of horizontal progression is that less people run multiple pieces of content, because they are only aiming for one or two pieces of gear out of many options, instead of obtaining each option to continuously increase their power (vertical progression). We can't swap gear in combat and we have restricted inventory space so people would feel discouraged to run all the content for rewards and get all the different pieces if they are the same strength. This means less groups running each piece of content, unless you make it take a very long time to obtain your desired piece (the same people would run that instance/content more which would populate said instance/content).

No one in favor of horizontal progression has answered this yet. What to do when all you get every patch are just sidegrades instead of upgrades and you are already happy with what you have? A change that supposedly makes pve interesting actually gives us less reason to do content and leaves us nothing but vanity to chase.

[Lorielle]

No one in favor of horizontal progression has answered this yet. What to do when all you get every patch are just sidegrades instead of upgrades and you are already happy with what you have? A change that supposedly makes pve interesting actually gives us less reason to do content and leaves us nothing but vanity to chase.

There isn't any answer for that because not every piece of gear would be upgradable. Your gear would be situational at best if your example. But this doesn't have to be full blown vertical to horizontal progression as many people are trying to perceive it as. People see things differently. I personally want some variety in a DPS rotation. Some situation pieces could do that depending for example. Or say Nidhogg weapons have attributes to do bonus damage against Nidhogg(makes running him multiple times easier). It doesn't need to be huge or anything. There's plenty of ideas littered here. You just have to consider them and how it would work instead of outright disagreeing with it. Even then, it's not even solely based on horizontal progression or item customization. There's more issues with XIV than just that. This one just quickly becomes the hot topic each time.

I deny your suggestions because I just don't like them and you assume everyone needs to agree with you. Don't put your lot in with someone who is better at getting their point across than you without the "holier than thou" attitude your posts ooze.

Calm yourself. Your assumption of me assuming that is any better how? Which is far from the truth, but again...Perception. Clarification goes a long way. Tone down the hypocrisy a little bit. I have no qualms with people disagreeing and backing their statement with reasoning. But to say, "No it won't work because I don't like it" is a poor refute in any stance. You claim to be open minded but are quick to deny suggestions.

Now you can keep attacking me if you want or you can actually speak on a civil plain if you desire. I'll gladly combat you either way until someone wants to chime in.

[Underdog2204]

Calm yourself. Your assumption of me assuming that is any better how? Which is far from the truth, but again...Perception. Clarification goes a long way. Tone down the hypocrisy a little bit. I have no qualms with people disagreeing and backing their statement with reasoning. But to say, "No it won't work because I don't like it" is a poor refute in any stance. You claim to be open minded but are quick to deny suggestions.

Now you can keep attacking me if you want or you can actually speak on a civil plain if you desire. I'll gladly combat you either way until someone wants to chime in.

I'm always calm, just blunt. Yeah it can be grating but I have given my reasoning - optimisation.

It's a real issue that affect MMO communites and I've never seen it do good, "it's easy to say well casuals don't need to bother with it" which is true but then it doesn't work like that. People want their characters to be the best they can be so if their is a optimal build people flock to it just like FoTM classes. It doesn't take much for it to become the norm and then those damn dirty hipsters (jk) that don't follow suit quickly become targets. I like our community and do not like the idea of seeing it devolve into a cesspool over a few stats.

That is far more than "because I don't like it".

I'm perfectly happy to have you address if you feel inclined to do so and I agree that perception has probably clogged my thinking to which I do apologise.

[Lorielle]

I'm always calm, just blunt. Yeah it can be grating but I have given my reasoning - optimisation.

It's a real issue that affect MMO communites and I've never seen it do good, "it's easy to say well casuals don't need to bother with it" which is true but then it doesn't work like that. People want their characters to be the best they can be so if their is a optimal build people flock to it just like FoTM classes. It doesn't take much for it to become the norm and then those damn dirty hipsters (jk) that don't follow suit quickly become targets. I like our community and do not like the idea of seeing it devolve into a cesspool over a few stats.

That is far more than "because I don't like it".

I'm perfectly happy to have you address if you feel inclined to do so and I agree that perception has probably clogged my thinking.

To be honest, we have that sort of mindset already. Because in most cases, people will seek out Crit/Det for most classes. BLM is SS/Crit. WHM/AST(Det/Piety) and SCH(Crit/Acc). Healers probably have the most room for optimization though just so they can meet accuracy caps. But here's the thing, we can't move away from these stats because they are not optimal. If I see a tank for example with nothing but parry and accuracy, even I would be taken a back. I won't say anything, but I'd be skeptical. It's only when player execution becomes a problem that things are addressed. People don't really care too much about your gear until something isn't being killed or you're messing up a mechanic.

I don't think the community would fall apart at a little more depth towards item customization when the end all is still "Do mechanics right".

[Underdog2204]

To be honest, we have that sort of mindset already. Because in most cases, people will seek out Crit/Det for most classes. BLM is SS/Crit. WHM/AST(Det/Piety) and SCH(Crit/Acc). Healers probably have the most room for optimization though just so they can meet accuracy caps. But here's the thing, we can't move away from these stats because they are not optimal. If I see a tank for example with nothing but parry and accuracy, even I would be taken a back. I won't say anything, but I'd be skeptical. It's only when player execution becomes a problem that things are addressed. People don't really care too much about your gear until something isn't being killed or you're messing up a mechanic.

I don't think the community would fall apart at a little more depth towards item customization when the end all is still "Do mechanics right".

Sorry I missed this response

Yeah I understand the problem being ridiculous in regards to choosing things that don't benefit your character, but I would think SE would be smart enough to not add useless stats to the items for the class it was designed for if they were implemented.

Ok fine if such as change was to happen I'd go along with it, who knows it could well probably be a good thing and no-one can predict the future. Worrying about what "might" happen is me being stupid... I mean nothing changes if everything just stays the same (if that makes any sense).