"Don't Explain; Learn by Doing"

[Sida]

When it comes to the new light party dungeons, I usually ask if the others are fine with one blind attempt on the bosses before they shed around the advice. That's only three other people and most of the time they are quite fine with it. When it comes to the larger group content I'm quite fine with getting some information before the boss, but I sorta don't like the huge text wall / ascii graphic help macros. Mostly because they are so spammy that they stop being helpful for me. Preferably on the first attempt with new players give out few notes that while failed can kill whole group but not try to explain the whole fight. It just goes over the head before seeing the stuff.

[Maero]

I also prefer to go in blind and look at it this way, those who have posted videos were once new to the fight at some point also and none were there to explain to them.
I do not oppose however explaining to new people as i also do it when i can.

[Leigaon]

No harm in going over the fight before hand. There are some things that can help out by knowing what to look for..other times you're just screwed doesn't matter how many times you read it. For me personally, the text will tell me some things but there are other things I have to see for myself and word them in a way I understand it more..so I admit, I'll have the wall of text, read it and still screw up like a champ.

The hostility I face usually comes from the "GOOOOO" guy, or from the veteran and his friend who have already cleared this place a bunch and, because they don't personally see the value in explanation, think all attempts at describing mechanics are a huge waste of time.

These are the guys that are the most annoying on the opposite end of the situation here. What annoys me a bit is that I believe these people likely died a few times themselves. It wasn't annoying so much for them I'm sure at that time. Best to take a few minutes and let someone learn something that might help them. But hey, these snowflakes are important IRL!

Then again, some people can't be taught. We ran this last night and our team kept wiping, I mean bad at the sphere of death. People explained the mechanics but for some reason our white mage kept moving to the wrong side with meteors, not esuna bleeding. Tank kept dying, the dragoon was doing the same and standing in the line of sight of the beam in its square mode. One guy finally said to us "Just tell us, what is it you're having trouble with?" well besides the meteors, some people were saying how they were dying instantly from the cubes over their heads. It was explained...our healer left, we got a new one. Tank DC'ed, we came back and we were able to crawl by even with a few mistakes.

[Xenos88]

I usually just explain boss fights, just so that the new guys can understand it better. If other people have an issue with well tough noogies

[Tint]

So you would put your own playstyle and impatience above the desire of some people to actually see an explanation, anticipate mechanics, and survive? Is it really worth the 2-3 minutes and probable wipe for you to head off an explanation like that?

i am impatient when i am expecting a wipe? i think it is better to explain stuff wich people actually have seen. i know they don't understand it if you explain the whole fight in a textwall, i have seen it doesn't work. i think it is just better to try and wipe an then explaining the specific mechanic which failed.

do you know wich people are impatient? these who explain the whole fight, expecting everyone understands it. they don't do this for the other people, they do it for themselfs in the hope for a fast clear. often these are the same people who rage after a wipe and are the first ones who leave. it takes time to learn a fight, you can't expect people understand it with just a textguide given to them a few seconds before the fight starts. step by step...

[Jpec07]

i am impatient when i am expecting a wipe? i think it is better to explain stuff wich people actually have seen. i know they don't understand it if you explain the whole fight in a textwall, i have seen it doesn't work. i think it is just better to try and wipe an then explaining the specific mechanic which failed.

do you know wich people are impatient? these who explain the whole fight, expecting everyone understands it. they don't do this for the other people, they do it for themselfs in the hope for a fast clear. often these are the same people who rage after a wipe and are the first ones who leave. it takes time to learn a fight, you can't expect people understand it with just a textguide given to them a few seconds before the fight starts. step by step...

Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe those people who tried to explain ragequit after you pulled because they perceived your pulling as ungrateful and insensitive to new players who wanted to hear what they had to say? Did you ever think that they might be so annoyed by your unwillingness to wait a minute for an explanation that has a chance at saving a wipe, that they don't want to run with you? Did you ever think they might see a WHM who pulled as immature and not willing to coordinate and work with them or anyone else?

I never see people who explain quit after a wipe unless someone pulled mid-explanation.

At that point, they aren't the problem; people who do as you do are.

It is not impatient to explain a fight, it is helping the group succeed. No one likes to wipe, and no one likes to wipe repeatedly. If through someone's explanation, the amount of wipes a group experiences in content can be lessened, then that explanation has value to the whole group. People who explain fights in long-winded form often do not do so because they want to show off their knowledge of the fight; they do so because good explanations are proven to help groups succeed more, and more often.

Often if it's a mechanics-heavy fight (like The Chrysalis), if someone comes in and says "first time," and says they haven't even watched a video but want an explanation, I'll groan, but take the 45 seconds it takes to explain the fight so they have some idea what to do. And usually, we succeed in one or two attempts.

I'm sure there are jerks on both sides, but if someone is explaining, it is extremely rude and inconsiderate to interrupt them or not let them finish.

[Tint]

Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe those people who tried to explain ragequit after you pulled because they perceived your pulling as ungrateful and insensitive to new players who wanted to hear what they had to say? Did you ever think that they might be so annoyed by your unwillingness to wait a minute for an explanation that has a chance at saving a wipe, that they don't want to run with you? Did you ever think they might see a WHM who pulled as immature and not willing to coordinate and work with them or anyone else?

nope. i never thought that, because i played the whm for 2,5 years now and i never pulled as whm. but this stuff happened all the time. people enter an instance for the first time, expecting they are entitled to get an explaination (we are all just people who want to play this game, no guides. but hey, i think that's what mentors are for? good, i am NOT a mentor and i will never be one). however, i am playing tank now...
if someone wants an explaination so hard they should watch a guide BEFORE they enter the instance. nobody should expect to get an explaination inside. if the people explain it, fine, i'll wait with pulling. but i will not explain it, especially not when nobody was asking for an explaination, and not the whole fight in english, wich is not my main language. i will explain after all have seen the machanic i'll explain. i have seen this works better than the textwall at the beginning. they already know when X machanic will happen and how the mechanic looks like. and then they know: NOW i have to do THIS to avoid the machanic.

i was refering especially to those people who write text-macros for all the bossfights in weeping city and nidhogg, fights well known for their rage quitters.

and still: if people don't like my way to handle things, they should watch a guide >before< they enter an instance. otherwise - live with what you get.

[Malicewolf]

i am impatient when i am expecting a wipe? i think it is better to explain stuff wich people actually have seen. i know they don't understand it if you explain the whole fight in a textwall, i have seen it doesn't work. i think it is just better to try and wipe an then explaining the specific mechanic which failed.

do you know wich people are impatient? these who explain the whole fight, expecting everyone understands it. they don't do this for the other people, they do it for themselfs in the hope for a fast clear. often these are the same people who rage after a wipe and are the first ones who leave. it takes time to learn a fight, you can't expect people understand it with just a textguide given to them a few seconds before the fight starts. step by step...

I've seen every combination of texts walls working and failing as I continue with DF groups while playing. There was a time I entered a sync'd odin trial with DF and 6 people were new to the fight (and out of those 6, only 2 even had ironworks gear). The other tank and myself were both overgeared and I started to explain the fight to people. The other tank said, "not needed" and pulled and to my surprise, we beat it in one go. I've had that happen in god knows how many other DF odin runs and this was the first time I passed odin in DF sync'd. Ever.
I've also had runs where someone macro's everything and we wipe horribly because no one read or understood the explanation. There's every instance inbetween because you're playing with random people. Everyone has a different understanding and reaction to game mechanics. Some easily correlate certain boss moves with previous ones while others find the subtle difference in appearance to be a complete throw off to them. Some are able to bypass mechanics through pure DPS pawnage because they'll only have to worry about encountering it once, maybe twice instead of 5 times due to high DPS.

You can't really generalize imo. Every situation is different/unique because you have different people playing. And to each their own. Some strive from reading explanations, some must see to do, others can simply react well enough that they don't need any help. Then there are even some who are practically hopeless. Maybe due to connection latency... maybe due to bad reaction time, who knows?

But I have actually never seen the people who take the time to explain a fight ever rage quit after the 1st wipe. I've seen them rage quit after the umpteenth wipe, but they are usually the one's who stick it out. The one's who pull mid-explanation however, I almost always see leave 1 or 2 wipes in. So I have no clue what kind of DF experiences you are running into, but they seem to be very different from mine xD

[Shurrikhan]

I've seen every combination of texts walls working and failing as I continue with DF groups while playing. There was a time I entered a sync'd odin trial with DF and 6 people were new to the fight (and out of those 6, only 2 even had ironworks gear). The other tank and myself were both overgeared and I started to explain the fight to people. The other tank said, "not needed" and pulled and to my surprise, we beat it in one go. I've had that happen in god knows how many other DF odin runs and this was the first time I passed odin in DF sync'd. Ever.

The same occurred with one of my Titan Ex runs... and Levi Ex... and my first attempt at Nidhogg NM. Just had people dodge things as usual, mark targets as needed. For Levi Ex I'd toss out some reminders, like "BLM, you're shooting yourself. Swap targets," or "Any movement ability will break the slide / knock-back," while the healers, both new, would mention stuff as they go like "Hey could you swap in / until this debuff's gone?" Titan Ex was silent aside from a "kill the adds at the same time so we can stack death puddles". A quick run and 6 achievements. DF's just that variable.

But if I were to give a rule of thumb based on my experiences, bringing out the info for mechanics only when they're about to actually occur works a whole lot better than text-walls. On 2.0 PLD, I could easily enough type them out between GCDs, prepping for the next phase shift and its mechanical addition. But if it was obvious, it was better left unsaid; bringing it up made it sound like something much more pivotal than it actually was. "Some raid damage coming up back to back; might want a Medica II" also tends to work a lot better than naming the particular AoE names and their exact damage or intervals when the margin of safety and possible reaction time is still quite large. Tldr; keep it simple, and only as necessary.

[Xenos88]

I don't understand why people get uptight about explanations. I always give one to those who are new so that way its easier instead of having them going in blind. explanations work wonders and minimizes the number of wipes for the entire group. A little patience goes a long way in helping a fellow player instead of acting like a bozo