"Don't Explain; Learn by Doing"

[Jpec07]

One thing I always try to do in dungeons and trials, especially when paired with new people, is to explain the mechanics of the fight for whoever might want to hear them. It's something I started doing when the folks in my FC started farming World of Darkness about a year ago for our respective Demon sets, because the bosses in that place like to eat uncoordinated raiders for breakfast.

Lately, too, I've been trying to help groups succeed at Final Steps of Faith, explaining the complex mechanics at the start of the fight--and when half of the group is new and has asked for that explanation, I'd expect people to be okay with a bit of explanation (especially for a fight that complex).

However, lately I've seen a resurgence of an attitude I haven't seen since I was farming WoD, where people are openly hostile towards people who try to explain the fight, and will pull before all of the mechanics have been described.

I endeavor to always be succinct in my explanations; in World of Darkness, I actually generated macros for each boss that would explain all of the essential mechanics in 40 seconds for every boss. But people were so opposed to even the idea of an explanation that they would spam those explanations away - even to the protest of people who'd asked for them.

In my most recent attempt, I got into it with someone who was trying to tell me that explanations didn't help, and the point he (and his FC mates) kept coming back to was that you learn from doing, not from reading an explanation.

So my question: is it worth explaining a fight to new people? Should I only limit it to key mechanics that can screw over the whole group? Or should I just not say anything at all?

[rblyell]

My static and I love learning by doing, we despise information being hand fed to us the first time in somewhere. That said, there's no reason to be hostile about information being given, especially if people ask for it. If you have folks asking, please continue to provide information! We could do with more folks willing to help others out, so kudos to you for taking the time to explain!

[Malicewolf]

It's a mindset that some people have, and honestly, I'm fine with them having that mindset so long as they actually LEARN from their mistakes. Too often have I seen those 'learn by doing' folks wipe from the SAME mechanic 10 times. That's when I get urked. It's one thing to want to learn yourself, it's another to force everyone else attempting to make it through to be at a standstill because you're too stubborn to get some help.

On top of this, I dislike when people force other's to not get an explanation. If that's your method, good for you. But that doesn't mean everyone likes trial by fire. If you don't wanna read, then don't. Hide your party chat while the explanations are going through. Or heck, just change which log you're looking at. It's not that hard to avoid seeing the chat. And if they are impatient, then that's on them. I'll gladly kick someone as soon as the chance arises if they are impatient and unperceptive to helping the group as a whole.

[Tint]

i like doing new fights blind. but however, explainations are fine if people want it.

but i think for the first try you should explain nothing. that leads often to a wall of text and nobody understands anything because they have not seen a single bit of the fight. when people have seen the mechanic you can explain it and then it is much more likely that people understand what you are trying to explain.

if someone puts a wall of text in the chat before a fight i don't care and just pull the boss. it doesn't matter because almost nobody can read all these, understand it, remember it when mechanic A, mechanic B, mechanic C... happens and then doing all the mechanics without failing.

[Jpec07]

if someone puts a wall of text in the chat before a fight i don't care and just pull the boss. it doesn't matter because almost nobody can read all these, understand it, remember it when mechanic A, mechanic B, mechanic C... happens and then doing all the mechanics without failing.

So you would put your own playstyle and impatience above the desire of some people to actually see an explanation, anticipate mechanics, and survive? Is it really worth the 2-3 minutes and probable wipe for you to head off an explanation like that?

The greatest irony is that usually, the people who rail against explanations are the ones who die first, and the people who asked for and presumably read them typically survive until those people's failures cascade to the whole group.

EDIT: I also really hope you're not pulling as a WHM. Not only is that rude to the people who wanted the explanation, but is also detrimental to group play, because you're taking damage you should have avoided, and are making the tanks' job hell for the first 30 seconds.

[Tint]

So you would put your own playstyle and impatience above the desire of some people to actually see an explanation, anticipate mechanics, and survive? Is it really worth the 2-3 minutes and probable wipe for you to head off an explanation like that?

i am impatient when i am expecting a wipe? i think it is better to explain stuff wich people actually have seen. i know they don't understand it if you explain the whole fight in a textwall, i have seen it doesn't work. i think it is just better to try and wipe an then explaining the specific mechanic which failed.

do you know wich people are impatient? these who explain the whole fight, expecting everyone understands it. they don't do this for the other people, they do it for themselfs in the hope for a fast clear. often these are the same people who rage after a wipe and are the first ones who leave. it takes time to learn a fight, you can't expect people understand it with just a textguide given to them a few seconds before the fight starts. step by step...

[Jpec07]

i am impatient when i am expecting a wipe? i think it is better to explain stuff wich people actually have seen. i know they don't understand it if you explain the whole fight in a textwall, i have seen it doesn't work. i think it is just better to try and wipe an then explaining the specific mechanic which failed.

do you know wich people are impatient? these who explain the whole fight, expecting everyone understands it. they don't do this for the other people, they do it for themselfs in the hope for a fast clear. often these are the same people who rage after a wipe and are the first ones who leave. it takes time to learn a fight, you can't expect people understand it with just a textguide given to them a few seconds before the fight starts. step by step...

Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe those people who tried to explain ragequit after you pulled because they perceived your pulling as ungrateful and insensitive to new players who wanted to hear what they had to say? Did you ever think that they might be so annoyed by your unwillingness to wait a minute for an explanation that has a chance at saving a wipe, that they don't want to run with you? Did you ever think they might see a WHM who pulled as immature and not willing to coordinate and work with them or anyone else?

I never see people who explain quit after a wipe unless someone pulled mid-explanation.

At that point, they aren't the problem; people who do as you do are.

It is not impatient to explain a fight, it is helping the group succeed. No one likes to wipe, and no one likes to wipe repeatedly. If through someone's explanation, the amount of wipes a group experiences in content can be lessened, then that explanation has value to the whole group. People who explain fights in long-winded form often do not do so because they want to show off their knowledge of the fight; they do so because good explanations are proven to help groups succeed more, and more often.

Often if it's a mechanics-heavy fight (like The Chrysalis), if someone comes in and says "first time," and says they haven't even watched a video but want an explanation, I'll groan, but take the 45 seconds it takes to explain the fight so they have some idea what to do. And usually, we succeed in one or two attempts.

I'm sure there are jerks on both sides, but if someone is explaining, it is extremely rude and inconsiderate to interrupt them or not let them finish.

[Tint]

Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe those people who tried to explain ragequit after you pulled because they perceived your pulling as ungrateful and insensitive to new players who wanted to hear what they had to say? Did you ever think that they might be so annoyed by your unwillingness to wait a minute for an explanation that has a chance at saving a wipe, that they don't want to run with you? Did you ever think they might see a WHM who pulled as immature and not willing to coordinate and work with them or anyone else?

nope. i never thought that, because i played the whm for 2,5 years now and i never pulled as whm. but this stuff happened all the time. people enter an instance for the first time, expecting they are entitled to get an explaination (we are all just people who want to play this game, no guides. but hey, i think that's what mentors are for? good, i am NOT a mentor and i will never be one). however, i am playing tank now...
if someone wants an explaination so hard they should watch a guide BEFORE they enter the instance. nobody should expect to get an explaination inside. if the people explain it, fine, i'll wait with pulling. but i will not explain it, especially not when nobody was asking for an explaination, and not the whole fight in english, wich is not my main language. i will explain after all have seen the machanic i'll explain. i have seen this works better than the textwall at the beginning. they already know when X machanic will happen and how the mechanic looks like. and then they know: NOW i have to do THIS to avoid the machanic.

i was refering especially to those people who write text-macros for all the bossfights in weeping city and nidhogg, fights well known for their rage quitters.

and still: if people don't like my way to handle things, they should watch a guide >before< they enter an instance. otherwise - live with what you get.

[Malicewolf]

i am impatient when i am expecting a wipe? i think it is better to explain stuff wich people actually have seen. i know they don't understand it if you explain the whole fight in a textwall, i have seen it doesn't work. i think it is just better to try and wipe an then explaining the specific mechanic which failed.

do you know wich people are impatient? these who explain the whole fight, expecting everyone understands it. they don't do this for the other people, they do it for themselfs in the hope for a fast clear. often these are the same people who rage after a wipe and are the first ones who leave. it takes time to learn a fight, you can't expect people understand it with just a textguide given to them a few seconds before the fight starts. step by step...

I've seen every combination of texts walls working and failing as I continue with DF groups while playing. There was a time I entered a sync'd odin trial with DF and 6 people were new to the fight (and out of those 6, only 2 even had ironworks gear). The other tank and myself were both overgeared and I started to explain the fight to people. The other tank said, "not needed" and pulled and to my surprise, we beat it in one go. I've had that happen in god knows how many other DF odin runs and this was the first time I passed odin in DF sync'd. Ever.
I've also had runs where someone macro's everything and we wipe horribly because no one read or understood the explanation. There's every instance inbetween because you're playing with random people. Everyone has a different understanding and reaction to game mechanics. Some easily correlate certain boss moves with previous ones while others find the subtle difference in appearance to be a complete throw off to them. Some are able to bypass mechanics through pure DPS pawnage because they'll only have to worry about encountering it once, maybe twice instead of 5 times due to high DPS.

You can't really generalize imo. Every situation is different/unique because you have different people playing. And to each their own. Some strive from reading explanations, some must see to do, others can simply react well enough that they don't need any help. Then there are even some who are practically hopeless. Maybe due to connection latency... maybe due to bad reaction time, who knows?

But I have actually never seen the people who take the time to explain a fight ever rage quit after the 1st wipe. I've seen them rage quit after the umpteenth wipe, but they are usually the one's who stick it out. The one's who pull mid-explanation however, I almost always see leave 1 or 2 wipes in. So I have no clue what kind of DF experiences you are running into, but they seem to be very different from mine xD

[Shurrikhan]

I've seen every combination of texts walls working and failing as I continue with DF groups while playing. There was a time I entered a sync'd odin trial with DF and 6 people were new to the fight (and out of those 6, only 2 even had ironworks gear). The other tank and myself were both overgeared and I started to explain the fight to people. The other tank said, "not needed" and pulled and to my surprise, we beat it in one go. I've had that happen in god knows how many other DF odin runs and this was the first time I passed odin in DF sync'd. Ever.

The same occurred with one of my Titan Ex runs... and Levi Ex... and my first attempt at Nidhogg NM. Just had people dodge things as usual, mark targets as needed. For Levi Ex I'd toss out some reminders, like "BLM, you're shooting yourself. Swap targets," or "Any movement ability will break the slide / knock-back," while the healers, both new, would mention stuff as they go like "Hey could you swap in / until this debuff's gone?" Titan Ex was silent aside from a "kill the adds at the same time so we can stack death puddles". A quick run and 6 achievements. DF's just that variable.

But if I were to give a rule of thumb based on my experiences, bringing out the info for mechanics only when they're about to actually occur works a whole lot better than text-walls. On 2.0 PLD, I could easily enough type them out between GCDs, prepping for the next phase shift and its mechanical addition. But if it was obvious, it was better left unsaid; bringing it up made it sound like something much more pivotal than it actually was. "Some raid damage coming up back to back; might want a Medica II" also tends to work a lot better than naming the particular AoE names and their exact damage or intervals when the margin of safety and possible reaction time is still quite large. Tldr; keep it simple, and only as necessary.