3.3 Dark Knight PvP

[FREEHURP]

I was hoping for a magic {Cover} and a magic {Testudo} equivalent to PLD's physical party buffs. I think that would bring a great asset to DRK for defense capabilities. As far as offence goes, since Soul Eater is dependent dark side which is dependent on MP i say buff soul eater 50-70 more potency since it cannot be easily zerged x2 back to back like fell cleave and reduce mp consumption of dark side or increase the MP recovered from their riot blade equivalent (i forgot the name).

[Nalien]

Managing mp...? What are you power slashing? MP recovery is not even the problem with DRK.

No, I'm using Dark Arts, you know, that thing that costs ~1/4 of my total MP? Blood Weapon will maybe amount to a free Dark Arts, but my burst will still burn through half my MP.

I don't actually have great difficulty with my MP, but watching other Dark Knights I can tell they do... That's my point, MP management is a factor for Dark Knights. Blood Price is essentially worthless, and Blood Weapon is one Fluid Aura/Sleep/good kiting/etc. away from joining it. MP recovery in PvP is less effective than PvE, meanwhile Dark Arts is more important... Unless SE addresses that, most Dark Knights are still going to suck...

That's just burst too, if I really want to take advantage of defensive cooldowns, I'll ideally want to toss up Grit (1326MP). A Dark Arts Dark Dance Dark Arts Dark Passenger combo has always served me well if I get focused, but that's ~4,4k MP of my ~6,6k MP pool... With the lovely added effect of rendering Blood Price less effective, despite the fact that I'm actually being focused enough to warrant it and would just have spent enough MP to definitely want it... Meanwhile Grit renders Blood Weapon unusable, thus essentially damning Dark Knights MP, while Warrior can effectively just switch between Deliverance and Defiance with no real cost... Plus, if a Warrior is being focused, they not only have more HP, they essentially have four heals at their disposal (Second Wind, Equilibrium, Thrill of Battle, Thrill of War), while the only self heal Dark Knight has worth considering is oddly Tar Pit, the drain on Abyssal Drain and Grit Souleater simply aren't designed with PvP in mind. They're designed for large AoEs of trash and long drawn out fights respectively, not PvP bursts...

More steps to burst? OH you mean two GCDs to build soul eater while a warrior has to build stacks? lol.

Let me correct myself, more steps during its burst... With Infuriate, at least... Then Warrior essentially just becomes Fell Cleave > Infuriate > Fell Cleave. There's more to Warriors buildup, but I'd also say Abandon is more plentiful than MP and less in demand... Those stacks are essentially just for Fell Cleave, MP/Dark Arts is for more than just burst...

The problem is that it sits in a weird place between PLD utility and WAR damage.

Dark Knight sits between Paladin and Warrior in terms of utility and damage? I'm sorry, what?!

How does Dark Knight have more utility than Warrior? Storm's Eye, Storm's Path, Thrill of War, Brutal Swing, Mythril Tempest and Holmgang... Possibly Mantra as well unless you're using Provoke in PvP for some reason... I suppose we can drop Strom's Eye from that list, given the healing debuff is gone and it only really serves the Warrior at this point...

On paper, Dark Knight has Low Blow, Reprisal, Dark Arts Dark Passenger (Blind), Tar Pit (Heavy), Carnal Chill (-60% damage), Delirium, and now Sole Survivor. In reality, Delirium (and Rage of Halone for Paladin, although that'll always be good to drop on the opposing tank) is rendered moot depending on your opponents, Storm's Path is not. Reprisal rarely triggers at all, and the duration to use it is short enough that even if it does trigger (usually due to a Bard/Machinist) it can be entirely wasted... Blind is mostly meh, and that's before we consider the MP cost involved (~2,6k), plus it can actually be dodged... Heavy is likewise fairly lackluster, Tar Pits main utility is burst and/or healing... Carnal Chill and Sole Survivor are the only things with any real merit to them, but like I said, Carnal Chill requires a lot of skill to be used effectively and even then it can just be Purified... Arguably the same is true for Holmgang, but I'd like to see someone Purify Thrill of War...

If anything, Dark Knight sits between Paladin and Warrior in terms of mitigation and damage, though a fat lot of good that does in PvP... Even then, we shouldn't ignore Warriors self healing capabilities if we're making that comparison... Nor the potential difficulty Dark Knight can have with Grit...

a magic {Testudo} equivalen

I was thinking they could adjust Dark Mind to effectively do this, but meh... That still puts Dark Knight in a shitty place due to how SE balanced parties and roles... Every party will always have two physical Jobs, perhaps a third... The only magical Job we're guaranteed is the healer, which isn't offense... Going down the mage tank route is OK for PvE, but the game just doesn't have an even spread of physical and magical damage to make it worthwhile in PvP IMO...

[Xenosan]

Better than nothing but man if they had nerfed Another Victim down to a 10 second duration, mmm that Vulnerability Up debuff may have be plausible in PVE..

Why the change to the Provoke animation? I'm curious as to what the reasoning is,

Foolishly hopeful that MP recovery is something they're aware of and saving for 4.x, when there's a job adjustments across the board. With additions to the kit as unique and integral as Form Shift and Meditation was/is for Monk.

[Exira]

No, I'm using Dark Arts, you know, that thing that costs ~1/4 of my total MP? Blood Weapon will maybe amount to a free Dark Arts, but my burst will still burn through half my MP.

I don't actually have great difficulty with my MP, but watching other Dark Knights I can tell they do... That's my point, MP management is a factor for Dark Knights. Blood Price is essentially worthless, and Blood Weapon is one Fluid Aura/Sleep/good kiting/etc. away from joining it. MP recovery in PvP is less effective than PvE, meanwhile Dark Arts is more important... Unless SE addresses that, most Dark Knights are still going to suck...

KEK. You know you have Syphon Strike that gives you half of a Dark Arts, right? It should be the only combo you're using. The Double DAs burst combo is every 60s so I still don't see the issue. Not to mention that Darkside consumes considerably less MP in PvP vs PvE. Are you trying to DA every Soul Eater?

Your argument is that bad DRKs suck at MP management. That can be said for any job that has to manage buffs/duration. MP management is quite literally the core of DRK much as BoTD(DRG), GL3(MNK), Huton(NIN), Aetherflow(SMN/SCH), etc. SE should not balance the game around horrible players that can't do basic management.

"Blood Weapon is one Fluid Aura/Sleep/good kiting/etc." This applies to most buffs for like every job. Getting CC'd/Kited is and has always been a great way to disrupt players/mitigate burst. The same exact scenario can be applied to Berserk, which is what makes WAR's burst so powerful. CC'ing/Kiting a WAR's Berserk is how many high level players deal with WAR, and like Blood Weapon, it can be removed. Intelligently using cds is how you win in PvP.

That's just burst too, if I really want to take advantage of defensive cooldowns, I'll ideally want to toss up Grit (1326MP). A Dark Arts Dark Dance Dark Arts Dark Passenger combo has always served me well if I get focused, but that's ~4,4k MP of my ~6,6k MP pool... With the lovely added effect of rendering Blood Price less effective, despite the fact that I'm actually being focused enough to warrant it and would just have spent enough MP to definitely want it... Meanwhile Grit renders Blood Weapon unusable, thus essentially damning Dark Knights MP, while Warrior can effectively just switch between Deliverance and Defiance with no real cost... Plus, if a Warrior is being focused, they not only have more HP, they essentially have four heals at their disposal (Second Wind, Equilibrium, Thrill of Battle, Thrill of War), while the only self heal Dark Knight has worth considering is oddly Tar Pit, the drain on Abyssal Drain and Grit Souleater simply aren't designed with PvP in mind. They're designed for large AoEs of trash and long drawn out fights respectively, not PvP bursts...

If you're switching to defense go into Grit and space out Shadow Skin and Shadow Wall while using Blood Price, then use DA + Dark Passenger/Dark Dance so not to waste Blood Price. Or vice versa.

"Plus, if a Warrior is being focused, they not only have more HP, they essentially have four heals at their disposal". And DRK has powerful defense CDs and Debuffs.

When a PLD/DRK goes into their Tank stance they instantly take 20% less damage, when WAR switches they gain Max HP and more healing received. WAR has to heal themselves/receive heals to get that instant benefit of being in Defiance. Even though WAR has more HP it's comparable to 20% damage reduction which has been calculated time and again in the tank forums.

Dark Knight sits between Paladin and Warrior in terms of utility and damage? I'm sorry, what?!

How does Dark Knight have more utility than Warrior? Storm's Eye, Storm's Path, Thrill of War, Brutal Swing, Mythril Tempest and Holmgang... Possibly Mantra as well unless you're using Provoke in PvP for some reason... I suppose we can drop Strom's Eye from that list, given the healing debuff is gone and it only really serves the Warrior at this point...

On paper, Dark Knight has Low Blow, Reprisal, Dark Arts Dark Passenger (Blind), Tar Pit (Heavy), Carnal Chill (-60% damage), Delirium, and now Sole Survivor. In reality, Delirium (and Rage of Halone for Paladin, although that'll always be good to drop on the opposing tank) is rendered moot depending on your opponents, Storm's Path is not. Reprisal rarely triggers at all, and the duration to use it is short enough that even if it does trigger (usually due to a Bard/Machinist) it can be entirely wasted... Blind is mostly meh, and that's before we consider the MP cost involved (~2,6k), plus it can actually be dodged... Heavy is likewise fairly lackluster, Tar Pits main utility is burst and/or healing... Carnal Chill and Sole Survivor are the only things with any real merit to them, but like I said, Carnal Chill requires a lot of skill to be used effectively and even then it can just be Purified... Arguably the same is true for Holmgang, but I'd like to see someone Purify Thrill of War...

If anything, Dark Knight sits between Paladin and Warrior in terms of mitigation and damage, though a fat lot of good that does in PvP... Even then, we shouldn't ignore Warriors self healing capabilities if we're making that comparison... Nor the potential difficulty Dark Knight can have with Grit...

"Possibly Mantra as well unless you're using Provoke in PvP for some reason." You could take Featherfoot.

Let's rate their utility by their power and how often they can be used.

WAR: 10% damage down(No cd), AoE 25% Heal/Max HP increase(150s cd), AoE Stun/Knockback(150s cd), and a 6s unesunable root(180s cd). (basic mantra lol)

Storm's Path can have a 100% uptime on a target, it's awesome. Thrill of War is great for clutch healing and possibly saving someone [from an LB]. Mythral Tempest is great for peeling, getting a 2nd stun on the healer during burst, or for its raw damage. Holmgang is just cancer, on the receiving end of course lol. Much like Carnal Chill (or so you say) it gets Purified often because of how cancer it is.

DRK: 10% damage down (30s cd,unreliable), 10% INT down (No cd), Blind (30s cd), AoE Heavy (90s cd), Carnal Chill (60s cd), and +10% damage taken (120s cd)

Like you mentioned before the chances of getting Reprisal out is fairly hard less you're getting focused (situational) . The INT down as well is also very situational. Now the Blind, Blind is one of the more powerful debuffs in PvP. Being able to make people miss (often) is powerful, loss of combo/mitigate burst/maintaining buffs. It does not just lower the damage of attacks, it makes them "0". Dark Passenger can miss, this is true, although you can predict the movement tank/melee when they are focusing a target to make it land significantly more often. Tar Pit great for damage, peeling, or self healing. Multi-use like Mythral Temptest and Tempered Will. Carnal Chill can effectively destroy burst if used correctly, It requires skill/awareness which I don't see why that is a problem. Also, if its getting Purified and can be used as often as it can, it has even greater utility than I thought. Sole Survivor 15s ranged TA, curious to see how effective it'll be, we'll see.

Overall, DRK utility is above that of a Warrior especially after 3.3 and can be used way more often than that of a Warrior. If Warrior still had healing down then maybe it'd be equal.

DRK has amazing utility you are just refusing to see past your own limits, capability, and overbearing biased against Dark Knight.

"If anything, Dark Knight sits between Paladin and Warrior in terms of mitigation and damage, though a fat lot of good that does in PvP..." How is that not good?

"Nor the potential difficulty Dark Knight can have with Grit..." I feel like this problem isn't universal...

At this point I feel like you are willingly refusing to see DRK's purpose.

[Drkdays]

1. Kek? Really? Go back to wow.
2. I can understand the issue with mana. After all darkside drains mana while in use and since PvP enemies just totally refuse to hold still and mana doesn't regenerate (for any significant amount) while in combat it makes things just plain harder for drk after that one burst.

[Exira]

1. Kek? Really? Go back to wow.
2. I can understand the issue with mana. After all darkside drains mana while in use and since PvP enemies just totally refuse to hold still and mana doesn't regeneration while in combat it makes things just plain harder for drk after that one burst.

1. Relevant comment
2. What? Darkside barely consumes MP in PvP and having issues hitting moving players is a matter of skill, not a DRK issue, especially since they have a Gap Closer. Also, mana does regenerate in combat , even for DRK (greater than Darkside [PvP] consumption).

[Ultimatecalibur]

Why the change to the Provoke animation? I'm curious as to what the reasoning is,

Better visibility maybe?